Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 2009 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: San Juan
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
ShaSha wrote:
Azathoth wrote:
I don't know how much background you guys really need, but here's some basic stuff:
I'm 16. My parents are atheists and by extension, so am I. My boyfriend is an atheist, my sister is an atheist, my friends are atheists, and my general environment is pretty atheist-friendly.
But lately I've been dealing with a lot of confusion. I'm overall pretty happy but I was feeling kind of empty. I ended up listening to some Bach to try and promote some good thinking and ended up being really pulled in a religious direction. And that religion happens to be Christianity. Be nice, here, I'm trying to figure things out.
Now, on the one hand, I'm kind of half-converted. Theoretically, and on the squishy level, I'm pretty much okay with the whole Jesus thing. But, basic research makes the whole thing really stupid. Believing that a malevolent spiritual force is what makes me fight with my sister is weird. There's a lot of circular reasoning that's confusing me. I don't think I can really get on board with the idea that a big (relatively) benevolent entity is watching my every move and is going to send me to roast because I didn't tell it I'm sorry for the crap I've done.
But.
I'm also feeling a very strong pull in this direction and a lot of it just seems right. Just seeming right is not what I usually use as my standard of evidence, so there's more cognitive dissonance here.
It's not a fear of hell that's driving me, though. The idea of some kind of eternal separation makes sense, I guess, but the idea of eternal pain and torture for normal people who didn't kill puppies seems like overkill. And if God is that much of an asshole, I don't think I want to worship him.
I wish I could approach this like math. I'm pretty good with numbers and logical trains of thought, but I'm also not a supreme logician, and the argument from personal incredulity is a fallacy, so hey, I'm confused. Has anyone dealt with thoughts like this before?
Also, with the whole Bible thing, I find it hard to take literally but why can't it be interpreted? On the other hand, if it's based off of interpretation, couldn't Jesus be a metaphor?
If you want to post something along the lines of 'lolz xtian retard gtfo my forum' please go fuck yourself and leave my thread alone.
I know the basic logical refutations for a literal interpretation, but I'm not taking the Bible literally and I'm not scared of Hell. I'm just curious and this is seeming right.
Basically I'm just working myself around in circles. I'm not especially smart, but I'm smart enough to know that what's attracting me is stupid, logically inconsistent, and all that.
Yes, Jesus can be a metaphor and the bible not only can be but should be interpreted not taken literally. I am a theist and I approve of what I have written
Seriously, I don't adhere to any religion but have experienced enough to know that following a religion or spiritual practice by CHOICE is honorable and freeing. So is being an athesit when it is by CHOICE and not because of anti theism.
Don't be in a hurry to make a decision. It is is ok to think for awhile on both sides of the the issue. I wish you well.
I believe the same, dont beat yourself over feelings, either way at one point your heart and mind will meet at the same place, then you will know you made the right choice. dont feel guilty over either feeling, its your life, live it and do what feels right. _________________ "Love Life"
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23063 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
Newman wrote:
I believe the same, dont beat yourself over feelings, either way at one point your heart and mind will meet at the same place, then you will know you made the right choice. dont feel guilty over either feeling, its your life, live it and do what feels right.
OR... do what you KNOW is right. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Posts: 1152 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Houston, Texas
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
Moloth wrote:
Newman wrote:
I believe the same, dont beat yourself over feelings, either way at one point your heart and mind will meet at the same place, then you will know you made the right choice. dont feel guilty over either feeling, its your life, live it and do what feels right.
OR... do what you KNOW is right.
How could one distinguish subjectively between what they feel is right or what they "know" is right? In all reality, both feelings are the same; "knowing" just appeals to your ego more.
There's no scientific way to find happiness in life; the whole process is entirely subjective, so "knowing" in the first place is irrelevant. _________________ Above the hive, beyond the lynch mob, where two and two always make four.
Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 9289 Local time: 2:51 PM Location: Where Scum Are
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject:
redraiderdude187 wrote:
My advice would be to start reading into Eastern religions, especially Tao and Buddhism. Neither of these hold to any sort of dogma, and both stress the importance of a personal "spiritual" (I really hate that word) experience instead of blind adherence to some skydaddy with jealousy issues.
If you're interested, PM me.
I'd be interested in what your reading list is, too. Mind sharing it here? _________________ The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 1433 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
redraiderdude187 wrote:
Moloth wrote:
Newman wrote:
I believe the same, dont beat yourself over feelings, either way at one point your heart and mind will meet at the same place, then you will know you made the right choice. dont feel guilty over either feeling, its your life, live it and do what feels right.
OR... do what you KNOW is right.
How could one distinguish subjectively between what they feel is right or what they "know" is right? In all reality, both feelings are the same; "knowing" just appeals to your ego more.
There's no scientific way to find happiness in life; the whole process is entirely subjective, so "knowing" in the first place is irrelevant.
Yep this is something I've been pondering and I feel emotions and reason are interlocked like DNA. You can try to separate the two but it doesn't seem to be right being one or the other.
If it is any help girls who are good with logic and reason have a hard time dealing with guys who expect them to be emotional. I've been a fan of Dil Demonique since she was on the CoR forums and later went on to be a Youtube atheist celebrity if you want to call it that...
Anyways this is a good thread about her personal crisis...lots of drama included...
Edit: I'd like to add something that Alexyss Tylor mentioned which makes a lot of sense. It's about vagina power in the church, and about the 3:00 min mark she makes comments about emotion and rational thinking...
Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 1887 Local time: 11:51 AM Location: Las Vegas
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject:
Azathoth wrote:
Thing is guys, part of what's been sort of moving me towards the god thing (not necessarily the Jesus thing, which is still giving me a hard time) has been learning more about science. Not in some, "Aha, this is so complex, it must have been gawd's idea," kind of way. It seems that what I'm really moving towards is some sort of Deism. Not an afterlife, not a god that gives a shit, just some sort of really abstract thing I can't put in to words. I've been learning more about math and the universe, and have still been more like, "Holy fuck that's awesome. I wonder how that worked." Not who put it there, not why a god made it, but still the same appreciation of science. So now I'm feeling kind of like a semi-Deistic atheist
I admit it's based off of warm fuzzies.
Maybe even deism isn't the right word. So how about this. I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing.
Aquinas has nothing on that sort of prose.
Pantheism? _________________ "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23063 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
redraiderdude187 wrote:
Moloth wrote:
Newman wrote:
I believe the same, dont beat yourself over feelings, either way at one point your heart and mind will meet at the same place, then you will know you made the right choice. dont feel guilty over either feeling, its your life, live it and do what feels right.
OR... do what you KNOW is right.
How could one distinguish subjectively between what they feel is right or what they "know" is right? In all reality, both feelings are the same; "knowing" just appeals to your ego more.
There's no scientific way to find happiness in life; the whole process is entirely subjective, so "knowing" in the first place is irrelevant.
it feels like the Earth is flat and stationary... however, it is not.
i could go about believing that it IS, because it seems that way to my limited, subjective viewpoint, but i would be incorrect.
Some of us happen to find happiness in knowledge... not just 'feelings'. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Posts: 1152 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Houston, Texas
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
Moloth wrote:
it feels like the Earth is flat and stationary... however, it is not.
i could go about believing that it IS, because it seems that way to my limited, subjective viewpoint, but i would be incorrect.
Some of us happen to find happiness in knowledge... not just 'feelings'.
The topic at hand isn't scientific knowledge; it's about lasting happiness. Obviously basing scientific knowledge on intuition will usually turn out incorrectly, but we're talking about lifestyles here. So as long as the viewpoint doesn't hurt anyone else there is no right viewpoint in the sense of what satisfies human beings.
All of that is moot though because the truth only brings you happiness because it makes you feel good. You personally enjoy the FEELING of rationality, logic, etc. So despite the fact that you may think you're superior to someone else because you value cold, hard facts, you would be wrong in the first place because that preference of yours is a pure aesthetic just like everyone else. _________________ Above the hive, beyond the lynch mob, where two and two always make four.
Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 9289 Local time: 2:51 PM Location: Where Scum Are
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
redraiderdude187 wrote:
The topic at hand isn't scientific knowledge; it's about lasting happiness. Obviously basing scientific knowledge on intuition will usually turn out incorrectly, but we're talking about lifestyles here. So as long as the viewpoint doesn't hurt anyone else there is no right viewpoint in the sense of what satisfies human beings.
And there isn't scientific knowledge about how we can have lasting happiness? I think there is... in a sense.
We seem very poor at predicting what our future beings may wish in order for us to be "happy". And there is some scientific evidence to back this up. Have you read "Stumbling Upon Happiness"?
But I think that I agree with your ultimate assessment of the matter. But I'm quite sure that I'm merely interpolating said assessment (and thus am quite unsure about my ultimate conclusion). _________________ The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 5315 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Here, There and Everywhere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
redraiderdude187 wrote:
The topic at hand isn't scientific knowledge; it's about lasting happiness. Obviously basing scientific knowledge on intuition will usually turn out incorrectly, but we're talking about lifestyles here. So as long as the viewpoint doesn't hurt anyone else there is no right viewpoint in the sense of what satisfies human beings.
All of that is moot though because the truth only brings you happiness because it makes you feel good. You personally enjoy the FEELING of rationality, logic, etc. So despite the fact that you may think you're superior to someone else because you value cold, hard facts, you would be wrong in the first place because that preference of yours is a pure aesthetic just like everyone else.
Righty right, my deah brotha.
Now let's all head over to Lucy's milk bar to fill our glasses from her silent nipples. _________________ This space is reserved for inarticulate meat puppets who have no true perspective outside the refuge of quotation marks.
Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23063 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
redraiderdude187 wrote:
Moloth wrote:
it feels like the Earth is flat and stationary... however, it is not.
i could go about believing that it IS, because it seems that way to my limited, subjective viewpoint, but i would be incorrect.
Some of us happen to find happiness in knowledge... not just 'feelings'.
The topic at hand isn't scientific knowledge; it's about lasting happiness. Obviously basing scientific knowledge on intuition will usually turn out incorrectly, but we're talking about lifestyles here. So as long as the viewpoint doesn't hurt anyone else there is no right viewpoint in the sense of what satisfies human beings.
All of that is moot though because the truth only brings you happiness because it makes you feel good. You personally enjoy the FEELING of rationality, logic, etc. So despite the fact that you may think you're superior to someone else because you value cold, hard facts, you would be wrong in the first place because that preference of yours is a pure aesthetic just like everyone else.
that is one of the most convoluted sentences i've seen in a while.
its a fact.. that i MAY think i'm superior (because, of course YOU don't think that YOU are superior because of what you believe.. lol)...
because i value facts...
BUT, i COULD be wrong (about what?) because my preference of finding facts to be true...
is just an ascetic preference?
*rubs chin*
so... i may think i'm superior because i think facts are true, but, i could be wrong because thats just a matter of taste.
*scratches head*..
huh... okayyyy.
Its a FACT that you MAY not have a fucking clue as to what you're talking about.
because, of course.. its all just ascetic preference, anyways. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
ROGER SCHANK
Psychologist & Computer Scientist; Author, Designing World-Class E-Learning
Irrational choices.
I do not believe that people are capable of rational thought when it comes to making decisions in their own lives. People believe that are behaving rationally and have thought things out, of course, but when major decisions are made—who to marry, where to live, what career to pursue, what college to attend, people's minds simply cannot cope with the complexity. When they try to rationally analyze potential options, their unconscious, emotional thoughts take over and make the choice for them.
Joined: 17 May 2007 Posts: 469 Local time: 1:51 PM
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
Why would christianity be the logical choice for you religiously? Christianity is a cluster fuck of ancient religions pissed in to a cup of stupidity. It reads more like a forged signature than a real religion. Investigate the religions that we have based our societies on today, such as the ancient ones, then decide whether you want to dedicate your life to such a pathetically simple one as christianity.
Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Posts: 1152 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Houston, Texas
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Re: A personal crisis
Moloth wrote:
that is one of the most convoluted sentences i've seen in a while.
its a fact.. that i MAY think i'm superior (because, of course YOU don't think that YOU are superior because of what you believe.. lol)...
because i value facts...
BUT, i COULD be wrong (about what?) because my preference of finding facts to be true...
is just an ascetic preference?
*rubs chin*
so... i may think i'm superior because i think facts are true, but, i could be wrong because thats just a matter of taste.
*scratches head*..
huh... okayyyy.
Its a FACT that you MAY not have a fucking clue as to what you're talking about.
because, of course.. its all just ascetic preference, anyways.
I didn't say anything about you being wrong for relying on facts. Facts, by definition, are true (duh). I said that you are wrong to automatically assume that you are superior to someone else because facts and logic alone satisfy you. My reasoning for this is that you have no control over what makes you happy in the first place because it is just an aesthetic preference.
The funny thing is that you proved my point entirely in the way you responded to my comment. _________________ Above the hive, beyond the lynch mob, where two and two always make four.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 1208 Local time: 1:51 PM Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:37 am Post subject:
Sometimes the whole "I need something to fill in the gaps" can be solved with a drink, a blow-job and a smoke. If that is not available, get a puppy. _________________ Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion.
The reality is: The majority of Christians are, because they have never read the Bible, whereas the majority of Atheists are, because they have. tjb
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