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Moloth
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| PJS wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | The universe is cold, impersonal, and indifferent. Learn to live with it, it's not that hard... |
Not bad from the perspective of Knightean therapy , but sixteen words is a bit verbose . |
ooh, ooh.. how was mine, PJS??
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joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | The universe is cold, impersonal, and indifferent. |
Someone has been reading Stephen Crane 
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"What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." --Carl Sagan
"In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." --Douglas Adams
In memory of George Carlin. May he rest in peace.
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Nimitz
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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PJS said:
| Quote: | Not bad from the perspective of Knightean therapy , but sixteen words is a bit verbose .
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How about, "The universe is."? |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: A personal crisis |
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| Azathoth wrote: | I don't know how much background you guys really need, but here's some basic stuff:
I'm 16. My parents are atheists and by extension, so am I. My boyfriend is an atheist, my sister is an atheist, my friends are atheists, and my general environment is pretty atheist-friendly.
But lately I've been dealing with a lot of confusion. I'm overall pretty happy but I was feeling kind of empty. I ended up listening to some Bach to try and promote some good thinking and ended up being really pulled in a religious direction. And that religion happens to be Christianity. Be nice, here, I'm trying to figure things out.
Now, on the one hand, I'm kind of half-converted. Theoretically, and on the squishy level, I'm pretty much okay with the whole Jesus thing. But, basic research makes the whole thing really stupid. Believing that a malevolent spiritual force is what makes me fight with my sister is weird. There's a lot of circular reasoning that's confusing me. I don't think I can really get on board with the idea that a big (relatively) benevolent entity is watching my every move and is going to send me to roast because I didn't tell it I'm sorry for the crap I've done.
But.
I'm also feeling a very strong pull in this direction and a lot of it just seems right. Just seeming right is not what I usually use as my standard of evidence, so there's more cognitive dissonance here.
It's not a fear of hell that's driving me, though. The idea of some kind of eternal separation makes sense, I guess, but the idea of eternal pain and torture for normal people who didn't kill puppies seems like overkill. And if God is that much of an asshole, I don't think I want to worship him.
I wish I could approach this like math. I'm pretty good with numbers and logical trains of thought, but I'm also not a supreme logician, and the argument from personal incredulity is a fallacy, so hey, I'm confused. Has anyone dealt with thoughts like this before?
Also, with the whole Bible thing, I find it hard to take literally but why can't it be interpreted? On the other hand, if it's based off of interpretation, couldn't Jesus be a metaphor?
If you want to post something along the lines of 'lolz xtian retard gtfo my forum' please go fuck yourself and leave my thread alone.
I know the basic logical refutations for a literal interpretation, but I'm not taking the Bible literally and I'm not scared of Hell. I'm just curious and this is seeming right. 
Basically I'm just working myself around in circles. I'm not especially smart, but I'm smart enough to know that what's attracting me is stupid, logically inconsistent, and all that. |
Yes, Jesus can be a metaphor and the bible not only can be but should be interpreted not taken literally. I am a theist and I approve of what I have written 
Seriously, I don't adhere to any religion but have experienced enough to know that following a religion or spiritual practice by CHOICE is honorable and freeing. So is being an athesit when it is by CHOICE and not because of anti theism.
Don't be in a hurry to make a decision. It is is ok to think for awhile on both sides of the the issue. I wish you well. |
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Informavore
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Rely on reason and not emotions. Religion might feel right, but that doesn't make it right -- even just for you.
Feeling emptiness sometimes is simply a part of being human, especially when young and inexperienced. It comes about from many different circumstances, but it is rooted primarily in our survival imperative. My advice to you to help alleviate your emptiness is that you fill your life with deeper, lasting friendships and enjoyable, fulfilling hobbies. Not religion. Those will do more good in your life than religion ever will. |
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Azathoth
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Thing is guys, part of what's been sort of moving me towards the god thing (not necessarily the Jesus thing, which is still giving me a hard time) has been learning more about science. Not in some, "Aha, this is so complex, it must have been gawd's idea," kind of way. It seems that what I'm really moving towards is some sort of Deism. Not an afterlife, not a god that gives a shit, just some sort of really abstract thing I can't put in to words. I've been learning more about math and the universe, and have still been more like, "Holy fuck that's awesome. I wonder how that worked." Not who put it there, not why a god made it, but still the same appreciation of science. So now I'm feeling kind of like a semi-Deistic atheist
I admit it's based off of warm fuzzies.
Maybe even deism isn't the right word. So how about this. I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing. 
Aquinas has nothing on that sort of prose. 
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Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Argument from warm
fuzzies doesn't really work
It's all in your mind.
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dwj21
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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if i were you i would consider myself lucky to have so many people in my life that were not delusional freaks. seriously, you do not know how good you have it.
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Azathoth wrote: | Thing is guys, part of what's been sort of moving me towards the god thing (not necessarily the Jesus thing, which is still giving me a hard time) has been learning more about science. Not in some, "Aha, this is so complex, it must have been gawd's idea," kind of way. It seems that what I'm really moving towards is some sort of Deism. Not an afterlife, not a god that gives a shit, just some sort of really abstract thing I can't put in to words. I've been learning more about math and the universe, and have still been more like, "Holy fuck that's awesome. I wonder how that worked." Not who put it there, not why a god made it, but still the same appreciation of science. So now I'm feeling kind of like a semi-Deistic atheist
I admit it's based off of warm fuzzies.
Maybe even deism isn't the right word. So how about this. I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing.
Aquinas has nothing on that sort of prose. |
Warm fuzzies are frequently something that we can trust as strong intuition. Since warm fuzzies are usually shunned by many guys, you have to make your own mind up about the value of it.
I once shunned warm fuzzies myself but when I started going according to them with a balance of my head, I found myself where I wanted to be. Because of the taboo of warm fuzzies, I used different words with my kids.
While warm fuzzies can't always be the decisive factor, they are definitely a good director. So go, search and you will decide whether god is right for you and which. |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Azathoth wrote: | Thing is guys, part of what's been sort of moving me towards the god thing (not necessarily the Jesus thing, which is still giving me a hard time) has been learning more about science. Not in some, "Aha, this is so complex, it must have been gawd's idea," kind of way. It seems that what I'm really moving towards is some sort of Deism. Not an afterlife, not a god that gives a shit, just some sort of really abstract thing I can't put in to words. I've been learning more about math and the universe, and have still been more like, "Holy fuck that's awesome. I wonder how that worked." Not who put it there, not why a god made it, but still the same appreciation of science. So now I'm feeling kind of like a semi-Deistic atheist
I admit it's based off of warm fuzzies.
Maybe even deism isn't the right word. So how about this. I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing.
Aquinas has nothing on that sort of prose. |
Warm fuzzies are frequently something that we can trust as strong intuition. Since warm fuzzies are usually shunned by many guys, you have to make your own mind up about the value of it.
I once shunned warm fuzzies myself but when I started going according to them with a balance of my head, I found myself where I wanted to be. Because of the taboo of warm fuzzies, I used different words with my kids.
While warm fuzzies can't always be the decisive factor, they are definitely a good director. So go, search and you will decide whether god is right for you and which. |
or, Azathoth, you could do something that makes sense.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Pekkle
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Azathoth wrote: | Thing is guys, part of what's been sort of moving me towards the god thing (not necessarily the Jesus thing, which is still giving me a hard time) has been learning more about science. Not in some, "Aha, this is so complex, it must have been gawd's idea," kind of way. It seems that what I'm really moving towards is some sort of Deism. Not an afterlife, not a god that gives a shit, just some sort of really abstract thing I can't put in to words. I've been learning more about math and the universe, and have still been more like, "Holy fuck that's awesome. I wonder how that worked." Not who put it there, not why a god made it, but still the same appreciation of science. So now I'm feeling kind of like a semi-Deistic atheist
I admit it's based off of warm fuzzies.
Maybe even deism isn't the right word. So how about this. I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing.
Aquinas has nothing on that sort of prose. |
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adam.
Humans have an instinctual capacity for awe and wonder which is all good and well. But we also have a tendency to then attribute supernatural forces to these experiences.
Religion holds a monopoly on spirituality and experiencing feelings of awe and wonder, despite the reality of their independant existence. |
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MockingGods
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Azathoth wrote: | | I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing. |
As in a creepy disembodied hand? You know the Adam’s family was fiction, correct?
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| dwj21 wrote: | | if i were you i would consider myself lucky to have so many people in my life that were not delusional freaks. seriously, you do not know how good you have it. |
That's the problem with people who are spoiled -- they just don't know how good they have it. They need to have their asses kicked really hard. |
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Informavore
Visitor
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Azathoth wrote: | Thing is guys, part of what's been sort of moving me towards the god thing (not necessarily the Jesus thing, which is still giving me a hard time) has been learning more about science. Not in some, "Aha, this is so complex, it must have been gawd's idea," kind of way. It seems that what I'm really moving towards is some sort of Deism. Not an afterlife, not a god that gives a shit, just some sort of really abstract thing I can't put in to words. I've been learning more about math and the universe, and have still been more like, "Holy fuck that's awesome. I wonder how that worked." Not who put it there, not why a god made it, but still the same appreciation of science. So now I'm feeling kind of like a semi-Deistic atheist
I admit it's based off of warm fuzzies.
Maybe even deism isn't the right word. So how about this. I, Azathoth, 16-year old teenager, now kinda sorta maybe believe in some sort of Thing.
Aquinas has nothing on that sort of prose. |
Mysticism can and should be divorced wholly from theology. That mystical sense of awe and wonder I often experience upon contemplation of the universe, but most commonly through music. It's the chills down my back, the rush in my brain, the ecstasy of my emotions, the joy of my revelry...
You are right, deism is not the right word. You are still an atheist but with a healthy sense of wonder toward your world. |
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redraiderdude187
The Madcap Laugher
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 1152
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Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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To the OP, I understand what you mean by feeling a certain underlying power to the universe, which, if I'm interpreting your description correctly, sounds more like pantheism rather than deism. The pull towards Jesus/Christianity is natural with this sort of spiritual experience because you're from the West, and Christianity is probably the only option you're familiar with. I wouldn't take this sort of attraction to Jesus as anything more than your mind attempting to find something to explain the vast beauty that is our universe.
My advice would be to start reading into Eastern religions, especially Tao and Buddhism. Neither of these hold to any sort of dogma, and both stress the importance of a personal "spiritual" (I really hate that word) experience instead of blind adherence to some skydaddy with jealousy issues.
If you're interested, PM me.
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