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gnosis
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 Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Remember that hockey stick graph? Remember how McIntyre and McKittrick showed the horrid math involved with that? Remember how McIntyre showed that 1934, and not 1998, was the warmest on record? |
McIntyre is a mathematician focusing on specific graphs for minor inaccuracies that do absolutely nothing to contradict the whole of the science behind climate change.
Perhaps we should take a gander at what the actual climate scientists have to say about it:
The debunking of the "debunking" |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Remember that hockey stick graph? Remember how McIntyre and McKittrick showed the horrid math involved with that? Remember how McIntyre showed that 1934, and not 1998, was the warmest on record? |
| gnosis wrote: | | McIntyre is a mathematician focusing on specific graphs for minor inaccuracies |
WHICH YOU REPEATED!
You repeated that 1998 was the warmest year, when it's not.
Perhaps you should remember that the graph McIntyre corrected was, very quietly, corrected to show the proper findings, i.e. the ones McIntyre showed.
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Remember that hockey stick graph? Remember how McIntyre and McKittrick showed the horrid math involved with that? Remember how McIntyre showed that 1934, and not 1998, was the warmest on record? |
McIntyre is a mathematician focusing on specific graphs for minor inaccuracies that do absolutely nothing to contradict the whole of the science behind climate change.
Perhaps we should take a gander at what the actual climate scientists have to say about it:
The debunking of the "debunking" |
Minor inaccuracies??? Dude, are you really this much deluded?
McIntyre effectively showed that the so-named "hockey-stick" graph was a bunch of hulla-ballo.
Your post is just a sorry attempt at Argumentum ad hominem
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"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman
"Why not just make your null hypothesis be that..." - Philosophos
Last edited by Sal1981 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Perhaps you should remember that the graph McIntyre corrected was, very quietly, corrected to show the proper findings, i.e. the ones McIntyre showed. |
Which changes what exactly? Absolutely nothing when it comes to the big picture of climate change, as far as climate scientists are concerned.
Maybe for economic mathematicians who work for "free-market think tanks":
"Ross McKitrick is a Canadian environmental economist and global warming skeptic, best known for his statistical reviews of temperature record reconstructions that purport to show dramatic recent global warming relative to history. He is Associate Professor in the Department of Economics at the University of Guelph, Ontario (since 2001[2]) and, since 2002, Senior Fellow of the Fraser Institute, a Canadian free-market policy think tank that opposes the Kyoto Protocol."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_McKitrick |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Sal1981 wrote: |
Minor inaccuracies??? Dude, are you really this much deluded?
McIntyre effectively showed that the so-named "hockey-stick" graph was a bunch of hulla-ballo.
Your post is just a sorry attempt at Argumentum ad hominem |
My point is that the "hockey stick graph" itself is just one piece of a much larger body of evidence. Focusing on it as the only important data for global warming is denial of an obvious bigger picture. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Perhaps you should remember that the graph McIntyre corrected was, very quietly, corrected to show the proper findings, i.e. the ones McIntyre showed. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Which changes what exactly? |
Everything, especially that website you embedded with the lie about 1998 being the warmest.
And remember: do not attempt to poison the well. What happened when you did that regarding Hans Hoppe?
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aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Everything, especially that website you embedded with the lie about 1998 being the warmest.
And remember: do not attempt to poison the well. What happened when you did that regarding Hans Hoppe? |
Pointing out the credentials and background of the individuals in question is not a poisoning of the well. Motivation is a legitimate factor. Claiming the revision of the hockey stick debunks global warming entirely is ignoratio elenchi.
Comparing science itself to a religion may be fairly accurate, because I definitely "believe" in science and the scientific method, as do many scientists. Global warming and climate change are not a religion however, they are scientific theories drawn from available data and evidence, not preconceived notions.
Last edited by gnosis on Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | Everything, especially that website you embedded with the lie about 1998 being the warmest.
And remember: do not attempt to poison the well. What happened when you did that regarding Hans Hoppe? |
| gnosis wrote: | | Pointing out the credentials and background of the individuals in question is not a poisoning of the well. Motivation is a legitimate factor. |
When you're trying to dimiss something because you don't like it, as you're doing, and ignoring the fact that he used proper math--then you're just poisoning the well.
| gnosis wrote: | | Claiming the revision of the hockey stick debunks global warming entirely is ignoratio elenchi. |
Claiming that anyone is claiming that the revision of the hockey stick debunks global warming entirely is a strawman.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Sal1981 wrote: |
Minor inaccuracies??? Dude, are you really this much deluded?
McIntyre effectively showed that the so-named "hockey-stick" graph was a bunch of hulla-ballo.
Your post is just a sorry attempt at Argumentum ad hominem |
My point is that the "hockey stick graph" itself is just one piece of a much larger body of evidence. Focusing on it as the only important data for global warming is denial of an obvious bigger picture. |
You're Irony incarnate.
_________________
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman
"Why not just make your null hypothesis be that..." - Philosophos |
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romans120
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Sal1981 wrote: |
Minor inaccuracies??? Dude, are you really this much deluded?
McIntyre effectively showed that the so-named "hockey-stick" graph was a bunch of hulla-ballo.
Your post is just a sorry attempt at Argumentum ad hominem |
My point is that the "hockey stick graph" itself is just one piece of a much larger body of evidence. Focusing on it as the only important data for global warming is denial of an obvious bigger picture. |
ok thats fair. now that we all know that the hockey stick graph and the claim about the heat in 1998 are crap. lets take on another chunk of your picture.
BTW - From what I could see your webpage didn't show the CO2 emissions of humans in comparison to other sources and it didn't outline the benefits abundant CO2 has on vegetation.
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Claiming that anyone is claiming that the revision of the hockey stick debunks global warming entirely is a strawman. |
So you admit then that the revision does not debunk the theory of climate change? I prefer "climate change" because the term "global warming" itself is not necessarily the best term to describe the probable effects of greenhouse gas emissions. The planet does not have to warm "globally" to cause serious negative consequences for global ecosystems, weather systems and humanity.
I will comment again on this later after I get some better information from my wife, who is an environmental scientist. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Global Warming: The Rise of a New Religion |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Claiming that anyone is claiming that the revision of the hockey stick debunks global warming entirely is a strawman. |
| gnosis wrote: | | So you admit then that the revision does not debunk the theory of climate change? |
Climate change in what way? You need to be specific.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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From the article Gnosis posted:
| Quote: | | However, there is clearly a latent and deeply felt wish in some sectors for the whole problem of global warming to be reduced to a statistical quirk or a mistake. This led to some truly death-defying leaping to conclusions when this issue hit the blogosphere. One of the worst examples (but there are others) was the 'Opinionator' at the New York Times (oh dear). He managed to confuse the global means with the continental US numbers, he made up a story about McIntyre having 'always puzzled about some gaps' (what?) , declared the the error had 'played havoc' with the numbers, and quoted another blogger saying that the 'astounding' numbers had been 'silently released'. None of these statements are true. Among other incorrect stories going around are that the mistake was due to a Y2K bug or that this had something to do with photographing weather stations. Again, simply false. |
source
What I get from reading that article is that, indeed, McIntyre has the "upper hand" and that, indeed, the hockey stick graph IS false. This article, however, merely states that there's a grander scale to BOTH McIntyre and the "hockey stick" graph.
If that was your first premise, then I was mistaken and I excuse my mistake.
Well, was that your first premise?
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"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman
"Why not just make your null hypothesis be that..." - Philosophos |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Sal1981 wrote: |
What I get from reading that article is that, indeed, McIntyre has the "upper hand" and that, indeed, the hockey stick graph IS false. This article, however, merely states that there's a grander scale to BOTH McIntyre and the "hockey stick" graph.
If that was your first premise, then I was mistaken and I excuse my mistake.
Well, was that your first premise? |
That quote you posted is exactly what I was trying to get at.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/08/global_warming_totally_disprov.php
Steve McIntyre's adjustment changed the U.S. Temperature series from this:
to this:
"Well, it's hard to see from the graph, but 1998 went from being 0.01 degrees warmer than 1934 in the US, to being 0.02 degrees cooler, so he was able to present this as OMG! 1998 NO LONGER THE HOTTEST YEAR ON RECORD, NOW IT'S 1934." |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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And somehow we didn't have all those CFCs in the air in 1934, did we?
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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