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josephpalazzo
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| Christians believe the Old Testament of the Bible is true: that Jews are the chosen people through whom God revealed himself to humanity. Also there is a prophecy that Jesus will return when the kingdom of Israel is restored (Acts 1:6). The belief that the Jews must be returned to the Biblical lands of Judaea and Samaria before the world can end has driven up American support for an aggressive Israeli approach to its neighbours in the Holy Land. |
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aitm
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Christians believe the Old Testament of the Bible is true: that Jews are the chosen people through whom God revealed himself to humanity. Also there is a prophecy that Jesus will return when the kingdom of Israel is restored (Acts 1:6). The belief that the Jews must be returned to the Biblical lands of Judaea and Samaria before the world can end has driven up American support for an aggressive Israeli approach to its neighbours in the Holy Land. |
I add that only the xians believe that. The jews would be somewhat insulted to think we thought they thought that.
edit: wow,, to think WE thought that? hmmm fruedian slip? interesting.... perhaps we,, I should have said most the jews would be insulted to think most americans would have thought that......hmmm
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emo samurai
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Do most Americans think that? Do they really?
First I've heard of it. Is there some kind of Protocols of Zion that I haven't read? Like, real ones?
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aitm
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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emo,
I may have over -simplified the position. While most american xians still don't care for jews, conservative leaders in bed with conservative republicans who are in bed with Israel hold tight the position that God favors those who HELP the jews as is writtin somewhere in the fable,, I could look it up but don't care right now.
Since God would favor those who help the jews. ( and therefore help americans oil interest by keeping an a-bomb close to the mideast) it is in our best interest to have a population that holds the success and welfare of Israel as a priority.
Most americans don't give a shit one way or another and are so goddamn ignorant of the babble that they believe anything the preacher man says.
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Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion. |
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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It's called The Rapture Factor: Evangelicals support Israel because of biblical prophecy, including passages that tie the survival of Israel to the Second Coming of Jesus.
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aitm
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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or ...you could listen to joe,,,although I think MY answer was far better,,,,so there  ~~
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Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
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infidel1
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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unlike what people claim here Israel is not base on religion but on the idea of the Jewish nation and they were nation long before they were religion.
Apart from that Zionism started as reaction to the raise of antisemitism,pogrom in east Europe and the Nazi ideology in west Europe.
Nothing about religion.
In fact that Zionist Jews were the seculars while the religious Jews oppose Zionism.
There is religious Zionism but they are far from main stream.
In any case the Jews have right for state not less than any nation and for that point not less than the Muslims.
As for the crusaders it has nothing to do with it but if you want to be accurate the Arabs gain that land by occupation. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Re: A question of opinion concerning Israel's existence. |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Also, that they are a pain in the ass for the Muslims in the ME is also good for the West. |
I think it's the opposite. By supporting Israel we're only encouraging anti-Western Islamic reaction. We should end our meddling and give the Middle East a chance to develop without interference. There was secular movement in that region from the mid 19th century through the 1980s and our government's meddling helped to derail it. Messing around over there only gives the Islamists grist for the populist anti-colonial mill.
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| infidel1 wrote: |
In fact that Zionist Jews were the seculars while the religious Jews oppose Zionism.
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Some religious Jews oppose Zionism, but many support it. The Zionist movement itself both before and after 1947 was/is heterogeneous and included religious and secular Jews, conservatives and socialists. The non-Zionist Jews prior to 1947 consisted mostly of 1) integrationists/conservatives and 2) Communists. The ultra-orthodox were hardly on the political radar.
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: A question of opinion concerning Israel's existence. |
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| emo samurai wrote: | I was wondering what you as atheists thought about the nation of Israel. I can see why, from an atheist perspective, Israel's existence would be fundamentally repugnant. It's no exaggeration to say that in creating the nation, the British succeeded where the Holy Crusades failed, namely in recapturing the holy land. Israel was founded for fundamentally religious reasons, and there's no way around it. The Middle East has been a clusterfuck ever since.
But the thing is, despite all this, I am very much glad the nation was created. It's easily the most free, most prosperous and democratic for thousands of miles around. The net effect is good. And I really have no reason to believe that the Middle East would be more stable and peaceful if it weren't for the existence of Israel.
So... what do you think?
And, uh... Hi. I'm emo samurai, and I'm new to this board. |
Personally, I have a mixed opinion regarding Israel's right to exist. On the one hand, I support the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and land. On the other, since the Israeli War of Independence, Israel has existed as a Western neocolonial outpost in the Middle East. Fast-forward to 2008, and I'm not sure what the solution is. The Occupation of the West Bank definitely needs to end, but beyond that I'm not sure, between a "two state" or "binational unitary state" solution, which model is most desirable or viable-- both models seem to have serious drawbacks.
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BarkAtTheMoon
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Christians believe the Old Testament of the Bible is true: that Jews are the chosen people through whom God revealed himself to humanity. |
This always cracks me up. Gee, the Jews' religion says their God favors them. Go figure. Just like every other religion. One of these days, maybe a theist will notice that and think, "Hey, wait a minute. Maybe that means they just made up the religion themselves to favor their own self-interests." But alas, I'm not optimistic.  I'd be more impressed if a culture's religion said they weren't the people favored by their god/s.
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Re: A question of opinion concerning Israel's existence. |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Also, that they are a pain in the ass for the Muslims in the ME is also good for the West. |
I think it's the opposite. By supporting Israel we're only encouraging anti-Western Islamic reaction. We should end our meddling and give the Middle East a chance to develop without interference. There was secular movement in that region from the mid 19th century through the 1980s and our government's meddling helped to derail it. Messing around over there only gives the Islamists grist for the populist anti-colonial mill. |
I think that you are about... oh, 1400 years too late with this. That region is only going to get more volatile. When Iran goes nukes, expect that Egypt and Saudi Arabia to follow, and the risk of a nuclear confrontation to be extremely high. And the West can do very little to prevent that, no matter how much meddling or good intentions we will have... |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Re: A question of opinion concerning Israel's existence. |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Godless Red Scum wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Also, that they are a pain in the ass for the Muslims in the ME is also good for the West. |
I think it's the opposite. By supporting Israel we're only encouraging anti-Western Islamic reaction. We should end our meddling and give the Middle East a chance to develop without interference. There was secular movement in that region from the mid 19th century through the 1980s and our government's meddling helped to derail it. Messing around over there only gives the Islamists grist for the populist anti-colonial mill. |
I think that you are about... oh, 1400 years too late with this. That region is only going to get more volatile. When Iran goes nukes, expect that Egypt and Saudi Arabia to follow, and the risk of a nuclear confrontation to be extremely high. And the West can do very little to prevent that, no matter how much meddling or good intentions we will have... |
Perhaps it is too late, though I think a less interventionist policy by the West as little as 50 years ago might have made a difference. In any event, I don't see how fucking around there any more is gonna help.
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emo samurai
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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We should move the Jews to Montana. It's full of empty land, and it's over nine thousand times as fertile and expansive as the mother country ever could be. Or you could move them to Texas. That'll piss of the rednecks to no end, and the inevitable fascist garrison state could be used to keep out the Mexicans.
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Moloth
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