| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
beertastic
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 9
Local time: 10:59 AM
Location: London, UK
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: Vengeful god...? |
  |
|
I've been asked to 'prove' that the jewish god (like most of the other 100 or so) have acted 'inhumanly'. Asked for blood, punished the innocent etc..
basically acted in a way that if god were a mortal, alive today, he'd be locked up.
I'm currently reading an english translation of the Koran, but when I'm done, I'll wanna break from religious texts.. so a helping hand here would help me out.
I'm not out for blood, or to start a hate campaign. My reason is that an argument has cropped up, where I'm trying to prove with it's not good to teach kids that 'god' (whichever) is right, and let them cose their own spiritual path...
Thoughts???
_________________
=============================
I believe in me and your right to be you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
nige_the_atheist
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 1436
Local time: 4:59 AM
Location: Houston, Texas, ex-UK
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible might point you in the right direction. The link is to the short list of atrocities and cruelties.
Although it's a bit of a read, Thomas Paine's 'Age of Reason' part two discusses the cruel OT god in eloquent prose.
For example "As to the character of the book, it is horrid; it is a military history of rapine and murder, as savage and brutal as those recorded of his predecessor in villainy and hypocrisy, Moses; and the blasphemy consists, as in the former books, in ascribing those deeds to the orders of the Almighty."
And the story of Achan is a good one to relate - where innocent relatives of Achan are stoned to death because of his deeds.
_________________
Affable Atheist's Webstore
Atheist Quotes etc
Evolution/Creationism Stuff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WaitASecond
Visitor
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 18
Local time: 10:59 AM
Location: Nashville, TN
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: Premises |
|
|
| Quote: | | I've been asked to 'prove' that the jewish god (like most of the other 100 or so) have acted 'inhumanly'. |
Beertastic,
I am curious of your objective in writing such a “proof”. Certainly, there is an abundance of death and destruction in the Mikra. The book of Joshua alone would suffice for such a study.
However, the reason I ask is that, logically, such an argument seems predestined for refute.
When considering the idea that God has acted “inhumanely”, it’s obvious that we’re dealing with an issue of ethics/morality. And, in order to build a sound logical argument for such, one must state the form/type of morality that he/she is exercising as a premise in the argument.
For example, we know that all forms of morality can be broken down into three components: the individual’s will, a standard will, and the relationship/condition between the two.
In Jewish Morality, the standard will is God’s will. Thus, whether or not an individual is acting “right/wrong” depends on if their will is in obedience/disobedience to God’s will. (Of course, how one goes about determining God’s will is an entirely different subject, which I will avoid due to its irrelevance to this topic).
In Secular Morality, the standard will is society’s will. Thus, whether or not an individual is acting “right/wrong” depends on if their will is in obedience/disobedience to what society deems as acceptable/unacceptable. (Once again, different societies have different ways of establishing such a moral system. A legal system is certainly one way of maintaining what is “right/wrong”; however, as with the American society, even a complex legal system will leave a profusion of gray area. Many will profess that just because something is “legal” does not necessarily make it “right”).
And in Personal Morality (or ‘Subjective Morality’), the standard will is the individual’s will. Thus, whether or not an individual is acting “right/wrong” depends solely on what he/she determines as “right/wrong”. This is not to say that those who act on such a premise will disregard society’s will, or necessarily deny theism; nevertheless, neither Law nor God would be considered as the ultimate authority. (In addition, those who altogether reject the existence of morality would theoretically be operating under this premise.)
And there are many other forms as well, as one would imagine. The latter two scenarios are both forms of Relative Morality (with Personal Morality being the more extreme).
Now, the reason I state all of this is because the idea of God being “inhumane” relies heavily on the moral system you select. What the Chinese government deems as “inhumane” may be much different than what the French government deems as “inhumane”, each according to the legal and moral codes that their society functions within. Similarly, in Relative Morality, what a present-day Roman governor deems as “inhumane” would be drastically different than what a 2nd century Roman governor deemed as “inhumane”. In Secular Morality, the definition of “inhumane” transforms as society transforms.
Thus, if you’re functioning under the premise of Relative Morality, and claiming that God has done something “inhumane”, the question immediately arises: “inhumane” according to who? According to you? According to popular American opinion? According to theists? According to atheists?
Even if you were to gather up a million people who agreed with your personal criteria for “inhumanity”, your argument would still be subject to argumentum ad populum (Appealing to the People).
Relative Morality really shoots us in the foot when we’re trying to determine the actions of others as truly “wrong”. “Wrong” merely translates as, “[My society and] I do not currently approve of this action/idea.” At best, we could state, “It is my opinion that what God commanded Joshua to do was inhumane”. And this is not a ‘proof’ by any stretch of the imagination.
The only possible way to logically categorize certain actions/decrees of God as “inhumane” is if you had a fixed, universal criteria for “inhumanity”. However, the concept of fixed, universal criteria is precisely what Relative Morality seeks to diminish.
And trying to describe God as “inhumane” in the context of a Jewish Morality does not improve matters. If God’s will is the standard of what is “right”, then, logically, it is impossible for God to do something “wrong” (because “wrong” would be defined as a deviance from God’s will).
Lastly, it should be considered that “inhumane” deeds are commonly based on the notion of “necessity”. If the destruction of a people group (such as a terrorist sect) would prevent the murder of civilians, that destruction is less likely to be considered “inhumane”.
Thus, by charging God of being “inhumane”, it would logically imply that you know more about what is “necessary” than God does. Of course, this might sound great to you  But, it’s doubtful that everyone else will grant you this stipulation.
In all honesty, I estimate that the disproof of God’s existence would be easier to construct than a logical claim that God has done something “wrong.” Hopefully this helps. If any of my suggestions are suspicious, please note. These discussions are beneficial.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dynamicphilosopher
Visitor
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Local time: 5:59 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I hope this is not going to be a bash the Hebrew Bible forum. If one is to bash the Bible they ought to focus just on the New Testament. The Jews aren't the ones going around proseltyzing and telling everyone they are going to Hell for not believing in Jesus. The Hebrew Bible doesn't even have a doctrine of Hell. They have a place called Gehenna but that is just a place in the middle of the Earth where spirits go just to rest. What's even more hilarious is the fact that in the Hebrew Bible Satan or more accurately ha'Satan is not an evil angel who is against God, but rather ha'Satan is an agent of God. ha'Satan in the Hebrew Bible never fights against God at any time, unlike the book of Revelation in the New Testament!
Moreover, no one would be thinking about the Hebrew Bible at all if the Christians weren't always going out condeming everyone of being a sinner. In the Hebrew Bible there is no concept of "Original Sin." A child is NOT held accountable for sin in the hebrew Bible until he or she is 12 (the age of accountability).
In addition there is nowhere in the Hebrew Bible where it says the messiah will be God or the messiah is both God and man. The messiah in the Hebrew Bible is only a man! Furthermore never in the Hebrew Bible is God mentioned or implied as three persons in one.
My take on it is one should learn how to use the Hebrew Bible against the Christians. For example in the Hebrew Bible blood atonement is only for unintentional sins not intentional sins. Moreover repentance and prayer in the Hebrew Bible atone for all sins. Look up Psalms 40:6, Proverbs 21:3, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8. Nowhere in these verses does it recommend blood sacrifice over other methods of atonement! There it is I just debunked Christianity and their doctrine of atonement!
THe war isn't against the Hebrew Bible and the Jews. The war is against the Christians and their rip off of the Hebrew Bible! The Jews are not trying to convert anyone to Judaism nor are they using their Hebrew Bible in such a way as to go out and attack anybody who is not Jewish like the retarded Muslim fundamentalist do.
I absolutely hate it when atheists bash the Hebrew Bible while attacking Chrisitianity! The Hebrew Bible is the best way to do an internal critque on Christianity. The Christians mistranslated so many verses from the Hebrew Bible that it is an abomination!
With a little brain power this specific forum can be used as a tool for a devestating critique of Christianity!
Dynamicphilosopher |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SvZurich
Loki's Little Valkyrie
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 21261
Local time: 2:59 AM
Location: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Welcome DynamicPhilosopher! 
_________________
Kimberly (HSBUH) aka
Baroness Sylvia von Zurich (the only Goldwater Conservative) endorses the Meadow Party's Bill and Opus for the 2008 Presidential election!
The Atheist Forums have new rules! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryan in austin
Visitor
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 10
Local time: 5:59 AM
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dynamicphilosopher:
I am new to these forums as well, and I'd like to start out by stating that I don't think that Judaism is above criticism AT ALL. If anything, it deserves the most out of all three religions, in my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WaitASecond
Visitor
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 18
Local time: 10:59 AM
Location: Nashville, TN
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: Agreed |
|
|
Ryan in Austin, I agree.  Since Islam and Christianity both have their roots in Judaism, if you dissect Judasim, you cripple all three. On top of that, "modern" Eastern religions, like Ba'hai Faith, and Universalist religions also incorporate Judaism as part of their theology, so they would also be subject to the effect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 21125
Local time: 5:59 AM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dynamicphilosopher wrote: | I hope this is not going to be a bash the Hebrew Bible forum. If one is to bash the Bible they ought to focus just on the New Testament. The Jews aren't the ones going around proseltyzing and telling everyone they are going to Hell for not believing in Jesus. The Hebrew Bible doesn't even have a doctrine of Hell. They have a place called Gehenna but that is just a place in the middle of the Earth where spirits go just to rest. What's even more hilarious is the fact that in the Hebrew Bible Satan or more accurately ha'Satan is not an evil angel who is against God, but rather ha'Satan is an agent of God. ha'Satan in the Hebrew Bible never fights against God at any time, unlike the book of Revelation in the New Testament!
Moreover, no one would be thinking about the Hebrew Bible at all if the Christians weren't always going out condeming everyone of being a sinner. In the Hebrew Bible there is no concept of "Original Sin." A child is NOT held accountable for sin in the hebrew Bible until he or she is 12 (the age of accountability).
In addition there is nowhere in the Hebrew Bible where it says the messiah will be God or the messiah is both God and man. The messiah in the Hebrew Bible is only a man! Furthermore never in the Hebrew Bible is God mentioned or implied as three persons in one.
My take on it is one should learn how to use the Hebrew Bible against the Christians. For example in the Hebrew Bible blood atonement is only for unintentional sins not intentional sins. Moreover repentance and prayer in the Hebrew Bible atone for all sins. Look up Psalms 40:6, Proverbs 21:3, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8. Nowhere in these verses does it recommend blood sacrifice over other methods of atonement! There it is I just debunked Christianity and their doctrine of atonement!
THe war isn't against the Hebrew Bible and the Jews. The war is against the Christians and their rip off of the Hebrew Bible! The Jews are not trying to convert anyone to Judaism nor are they using their Hebrew Bible in such a way as to go out and attack anybody who is not Jewish like the retarded Muslim fundamentalist do.
I absolutely hate it when atheists bash the Hebrew Bible while attacking Chrisitianity! The Hebrew Bible is the best way to do an internal critque on Christianity. The Christians mistranslated so many verses from the Hebrew Bible that it is an abomination!
With a little brain power this specific forum can be used as a tool for a devestating critique of Christianity!
Dynamicphilosopher |
Is the "Hebrew Bible" true? is the deity and magic that exist within it real? Is it a book of myths, parables and ancient, ignorant dogma?
I think i'll bash ANYTHING that is false, thankyouverymuch.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
www.twitter.com/Moloth
www.MySpace.com/Moloth
www.last.fm/user/moloth
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryan in austin
Visitor
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 10
Local time: 5:59 AM
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Since Islam and Christianity both have their roots in Judaism, if you dissect Judasim, you cripple all three. On top of that, "modern" Eastern religions, like Ba'hai Faith, and Universalist religions also incorporate Judaism as part of their theology, so they would also be subject to the effect. |
That and, not to be an antisemite or appeal to stereotypes, but there is an element of two-facedness in Judaism. They claim to be only for great things, like world peace and bettering the world, but they word things so generally that of course, you can't be against it. But when you take a closer look at what they really mean, think, and believe, you see that it is AT LEAST as (if not more) disgusting as the other two faiths.
The first article I posted in the other thread mentioned that (and described some of what the "ideal Jewish world" would be like), and Dawkins mentions some of this in his new book. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
