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romans120
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | romans120 wrote: |
no you don't have to play the part as if you believed it just limit the arguments to a specific theological system. I think You may have mentioned recently your specialty was eastern orthodox I think that would do fine. If we hit any points that you are not reasonably certain how a typical eastern orthodox would respond we can just end the argument there. If it isn't working either one of us can end this exercise whenever. how does this sound? |
That would make sense if we were doing theist-on-theist. But I'm not sure it works otherwise. I'd be giving arguments for a specific theological system, and you'd be arguing against no system at all. There's no point in trying to convince an atheist of Arminianism when the atheist doesn't believe in God in the first place.
If there's no role-play involved, I think it'd be best if I just give you arguments for the existence of God in general, then you rebut, we discuss, and move on to the next argument. |
yeah I see your point. The problem is I think the ontological argument is fallacious. I think the teleological argument only works if you can somehow prove that God is still creating which scripturally He isn't. The only aspect of the cosmological argument I am still holding on to is the prime mover argument so I'll be just articulating what I already believe. (which would still be beneficial for me) so I am glad to do it
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The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Philosophos
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | yeah I see your point. The problem is I think the ontological argument is fallacious. I think the teleological argument only works if you can somehow prove that God is still creating which scripturally He isn't. The only aspect of the cosmological argument I am still holding on to is the prime mover argument so I'll be just articulating what I already believe. (which would still be beneficial for me) so I am glad to do it |
You wouldn't quite be reiterating what you believe as you are supposed to be arguing from an atheistic perspective.
My plan is to use a mix of general arguments for the existence of God mixed with some Christian-specific ones. I'll probably start with softballs, and work up to more complex ones.
If this plan's alright with you, I'll probably post my first argument tonight or tomorrow.
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romans120
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | yeah I see your point. The problem is I think the ontological argument is fallacious. I think the teleological argument only works if you can somehow prove that God is still creating which scripturally He isn't. The only aspect of the cosmological argument I am still holding on to is the prime mover argument so I'll be just articulating what I already believe. (which would still be beneficial for me) so I am glad to do it |
You wouldn't quite be reiterating what you believe as you are supposed to be arguing from an atheistic perspective.
My plan is to use a mix of general arguments for the existence of God mixed with some Christian-specific ones. I'll probably start with softballs, and work up to more complex ones.
If this plan's alright with you, I'll probably post my first argument tonight or tomorrow. |
sounds good
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | Show of hands for a quick random sample, how many atheists here have been ostracized by their family or friends, been called evil or satanists, been told you're going to hell, been preached to by coworkers to "save your soul" or been told you can't be moral without god? |
You speak the truth. And if anyone needs more proof, this is actual footage taken only mere moments after a Southern man bravely declared his atheism publicly.
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Eyedunno
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Oh man, this is gonna be awesome. 
Heck, it's already awesome.
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
Where do you live? Not specifics, but U.S.? If so, what region: northeast, Bible Belt, west coast, etc? You'd really have to live in your own little world if you don't think this attitude is very prevelent, even the accepted norm in many areas of this country and many whole countries around the world. You can't possibly be that naive. |
Sorry, I apparently wasn't clear. I was challenging your assumption that those people were closet atheists.
I don't care how many there may be, we can't assume that somebody else is. Anyway, this thread is pretty much in a different direction so I don't want to drag out my point. That it was misunderstood and actually upset you wasn't what I wanted.
To answer your question I live in the state that is with my avatar. I raised my kids without a church and without any knowledge of any particular religion because I believed in choosing religion as an adult including atheism. They did have a general exposure in Social Studies. Do you know how much literature in high school at least alludes to christianity? I had to help them understand the references.
Our school had church release time where kids left during school hours to go to church school for an hour. Mine and a couple others were the only ones who stayed in school year after year. That occasionally led to either kids or teachers asking them sometimes uncomfortable questions. Fortunately because I didn't teach them to put any of it (religion) down, they just accepted it pretty naturally and there were only about 3 extremely uncomfortable situations as far as I know and that is from 5 kids. They came to me with it right away and we discussed it and they were then fine. When they were older some of the other kids envied mine that they didn't have to go to church. Yet, my kids were always allowed to go to somebody else's church when invited and they liked that. Those that went that is.
Atheism is no worse in the mind of the church goer than not going to church and not learning about Jesus. So I am not naive, I lived it. But I also lived the attitude that if I didn't impose my beliefs on another they wouldn't on me and it worked.
I do understand the not sharing beliefs with some close loved ones. Leaving the Catholic Church is a ticket to hell in the minds of some. There were some people that I didn't share that I had left the RC church because they might have rejected me or suffered for me. I didn't live near them so it wasn't important to share that. Our families knew and there was some fear from some but we didn't argue the case except the once we gave notice. We then just allowed everybody to deal with it in their own way.
I do think that there are more wounded people sharing on forums than the overall population of atheists so yes, there will be stories. I think a lot of it is personality and comfort in your own skin and parental attitude of religion. Do you remember Kevin the Pragmatist from the IG list? He is back there again. He grew up on the east coast and went to college I believe in VA. I remember him saying tha this atheism was never a problem when it came to prejudice. One of my sons chose atheism at about 17 and it wasn't a problem. It just isn't something that has a letter out there in spite of Dawkins big A for those who do want to "out" that way.
I am very strongly spiritual but equally comfortable in a secular skin. Everything to me is god and is beautiful in its' own way. I see it that way not because of rose colored glasses but because of analysis. Science helps make many ugly things beautiful.
That should answer your question. I am more experienced in mixed beliefs than the majority of posters here because I have lived it and have lived in different locations. When I talk it is from experience as well as well thought out solutions. And then I had the experience of seeing that they worked. It was scary being the only person I knew who didn't teach my kids the bible stories (early 70's) but I felt t was worth giving it a try because they would then be able to approach it all with a purer mind if they chose to do so as adults.
I have been writing a book on my religious experiences and how we all can get along. That's why I am on atheist lists is to learn from a variety since I already knew a variety of Christians and New Agers. I've pretty much learned what there is to learn and now I just hang here to observe those who are friends as well as to see what is new. |
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romans120
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
Where do you live? Not specifics, but U.S.? If so, what region: northeast, Bible Belt, west coast, etc? You'd really have to live in your own little world if you don't think this attitude is very prevelent, even the accepted norm in many areas of this country and many whole countries around the world. You can't possibly be that naive. |
Sorry, I apparently wasn't clear. I was challenging your assumption that those people were closet atheists.
I don't care how many there may be, we can't assume that somebody else is. Anyway, this thread is pretty much in a different direction so I don't want to drag out my point. That it was misunderstood and actually upset you wasn't what I wanted.
To answer your question I live in the state that is with my avatar. I raised my kids without a church and without any knowledge of any particular religion because I believed in choosing religion as an adult including atheism. They did have a general exposure in Social Studies. Do you know how much literature in high school at least alludes to christianity? I had to help them understand the references.
Our school had church release time where kids left during school hours to go to church school for an hour. Mine and a couple others were the only ones who stayed in school year after year. That occasionally led to either kids or teachers asking them sometimes uncomfortable questions. Fortunately because I didn't teach them to put any of it (religion) down, they just accepted it pretty naturally and there were only about 3 extremely uncomfortable situations as far as I know and that is from 5 kids. They came to me with it right away and we discussed it and they were then fine. When they were older some of the other kids envied mine that they didn't have to go to church. Yet, my kids were always allowed to go to somebody else's church when invited and they liked that. Those that went that is.
Atheism is no worse in the mind of the church goer than not going to church and not learning about Jesus. So I am not naive, I lived it. But I also lived the attitude that if I didn't impose my beliefs on another they wouldn't on me and it worked.
I do understand the not sharing beliefs with some close loved ones. Leaving the Catholic Church is a ticket to hell in the minds of some. There were some people that I didn't share that I had left the RC church because they might have rejected me or suffered for me. I didn't live near them so it wasn't important to share that. Our families knew and there was some fear from some but we didn't argue the case except the once we gave notice. We then just allowed everybody to deal with it in their own way.
I do think that there are more wounded people sharing on forums than the overall population of atheists so yes, there will be stories. I think a lot of it is personality and comfort in your own skin and parental attitude of religion. Do you remember Kevin the Pragmatist from the IG list? He is back there again. He grew up on the east coast and went to college I believe in VA. I remember him saying tha this atheism was never a problem when it came to prejudice. One of my sons chose atheism at about 17 and it wasn't a problem. It just isn't something that has a letter out there in spite of Dawkins big A for those who do want to "out" that way.
I am very strongly spiritual but equally comfortable in a secular skin. Everything to me is god and is beautiful in its' own way. I see it that way not because of rose colored glasses but because of analysis. Science helps make many ugly things beautiful.
That should answer your question. I am more experienced in mixed beliefs than the majority of posters here because I have lived it and have lived in different locations. When I talk it is from experience as well as well thought out solutions. And then I had the experience of seeing that they worked. It was scary being the only person I knew who didn't teach my kids the bible stories (early 70's) but I felt t was worth giving it a try because they would then be able to approach it all with a purer mind if they chose to do so as adults.
I have been writing a book on my religious experiences and how we all can get along. That's why I am on atheist lists is to learn from a variety since I already knew a variety of Christians and New Agers. I've pretty much learned what there is to learn and now I just hang here to observe those who are friends as well as to see what is new. |
What do you Believe? I am not interested in how you practice your belief ATM I only want to know what you believe. About God, about after you die, about your position before God.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: |
Where do you live? Not specifics, but U.S.? If so, what region: northeast, Bible Belt, west coast, etc? You'd really have to live in your own little world if you don't think this attitude is very prevelent, even the accepted norm in many areas of this country and many whole countries around the world. You can't possibly be that naive. |
Sorry, I apparently wasn't clear. I was challenging your assumption that those people were closet atheists.
I don't care how many there may be, we can't assume that somebody else is. Anyway, this thread is pretty much in a different direction so I don't want to drag out my point. That it was misunderstood and actually upset you wasn't what I wanted.
To answer your question I live in the state that is with my avatar. I raised my kids without a church and without any knowledge of any particular religion because I believed in choosing religion as an adult including atheism. They did have a general exposure in Social Studies. Do you know how much literature in high school at least alludes to christianity? I had to help them understand the references.
Our school had church release time where kids left during school hours to go to church school for an hour. Mine and a couple others were the only ones who stayed in school year after year. That occasionally led to either kids or teachers asking them sometimes uncomfortable questions. Fortunately because I didn't teach them to put any of it (religion) down, they just accepted it pretty naturally and there were only about 3 extremely uncomfortable situations as far as I know and that is from 5 kids. They came to me with it right away and we discussed it and they were then fine. When they were older some of the other kids envied mine that they didn't have to go to church. Yet, my kids were always allowed to go to somebody else's church when invited and they liked that. Those that went that is.
Atheism is no worse in the mind of the church goer than not going to church and not learning about Jesus. So I am not naive, I lived it. But I also lived the attitude that if I didn't impose my beliefs on another they wouldn't on me and it worked.
I do understand the not sharing beliefs with some close loved ones. Leaving the Catholic Church is a ticket to hell in the minds of some. There were some people that I didn't share that I had left the RC church because they might have rejected me or suffered for me. I didn't live near them so it wasn't important to share that. Our families knew and there was some fear from some but we didn't argue the case except the once we gave notice. We then just allowed everybody to deal with it in their own way.
I do think that there are more wounded people sharing on forums than the overall population of atheists so yes, there will be stories. I think a lot of it is personality and comfort in your own skin and parental attitude of religion. Do you remember Kevin the Pragmatist from the IG list? He is back there again. He grew up on the east coast and went to college I believe in VA. I remember him saying tha this atheism was never a problem when it came to prejudice. One of my sons chose atheism at about 17 and it wasn't a problem. It just isn't something that has a letter out there in spite of Dawkins big A for those who do want to "out" that way.
I am very strongly spiritual but equally comfortable in a secular skin. Everything to me is god and is beautiful in its' own way. I see it that way not because of rose colored glasses but because of analysis. Science helps make many ugly things beautiful.
That should answer your question. I am more experienced in mixed beliefs than the majority of posters here because I have lived it and have lived in different locations. When I talk it is from experience as well as well thought out solutions. And then I had the experience of seeing that they worked. It was scary being the only person I knew who didn't teach my kids the bible stories (early 70's) but I felt t was worth giving it a try because they would then be able to approach it all with a purer mind if they chose to do so as adults.
I have been writing a book on my religious experiences and how we all can get along. That's why I am on atheist lists is to learn from a variety since I already knew a variety of Christians and New Agers. I've pretty much learned what there is to learn and now I just hang here to observe those who are friends as well as to see what is new. |
What do you Believe? I am not interested in how you practice your belief ATM I only want to know what you believe. About God, about after you die, about your position before God. |
In a nutshell I believe that all of us are part of the All in All that is called God by many. We are God that we are looking for and cannot face within ourselves and we are the Devil that we can't face either in ourself. I say that as a generalization but many people have learned to do that and that would include the liberal theists, the atheists, and such as myself, free spirits. It is truly empowering when I could accept that I had the potential for the greatest evil in the world and the greatest good, right within myeslf. Natch, i seek the good but I embrace the evil because it is part of god but not malevolent if we understand.
I believe the bible is a history that also has some very very divine truths in it. Whether Jesus existed or was a symbol, I do not know nor care but he was a very strong mentor in my life in the early years and I cherish that I had the gift of his example. I do believe his ways and methods are available all over and I believe this is also what he wanted for us to seek our own way.
Since I believe we are God then I believe that we existed prior to our birth here and will exist after we drop our costume on earth. We all make it, there is no hell. I also believe we can experience a great deal of what is in heaven right here on earth. When we cherish all of the gifts we are given (spiritual and material which includes sex) we are happy all of the time or most of the time. When we get rid of the duality, the divine is human and the human divine so there really aren't spiritual gifts or material, they are all spiritual. But for language undderstanding, I will speak duality.
IThe Golden rule says love god, your neighbor as yourself. That is the key. When we worship or look at our neighbor and ourself as worthy at all times, we are worshipping god. It is not like bowing before a king but rather it is raising ourselves to a throne and seeing all others as equal. |
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romans120
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ShaSha"]
Romans
| Quote: | | What do you Believe? I am not interested in how you practice your belief ATM I only want to know what you believe. About God, about after you die, about your position before God. |
ShaSha
| Quote: | | In a nutshell I believe that all of us are part of the All in All that is called God by many. We are God that we are looking for and cannot face within ourselves and we are the Devil that we can't face either in ourself. I say that as a generalization but many people have learned to do that and that would include the liberal theists, the atheists, and such as myself, free spirits. It is truly empowering when I could accept that I had the potential for the greatest evil in the world and the greatest good, right within myeslf. Natch, i seek the good but I embrace the evil because it is part of god but not malevolent if we understand. |
So What you believe about God is that all is God and that God is all. God is both Good and Evil. We embrace the evil because we could not comprehend good in it's absence. But God is still not ultimately seeking our destruction so while being evil He is not malevolent. (let me know if this is at least close to being accurate) If so,
1. How did you come to know this about God? 2. It is impossible for God to be 100% good and 100% evil at the same time, so If all good things come from God those things can not be wholly good since God is not wholly good. Can you really say that all life and all experience is ultimately evil? 3. Life as we know it everything we know will be destroyed so how can you say God is not seeking our destruction?
| Quote: | | I believe the bible is a history that also has some very very divine truths in it. Whether Jesus existed or was a symbol, I do not know nor care but he was a very strong mentor in my life in the early years and I cherish that I had the gift of his example. I do believe his ways and methods are available all over and I believe this is also what he wanted for us to seek our own way. |
The only source you have for Christ's teachings is scripture yet the Jesus of scripture was very exclusive. "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father except through me" "I am not come to bring peace but a sword" (referring to the rejection culture would have to His message) "if any man does not take up his cross and follow me he can not be my disciple. If any man does not hate his father, his mother, his brother or his sister he can not be my disciple" You are not Christ's disciple if you reject His core message.[quote]
| Quote: |
Since I believe we are God then I believe that we existed prior to our birth here and will exist after we drop our costume on earth. We all make it, there is no hell. I also believe we can experience a great deal of what is in heaven right here on earth. When we cherish all of the gifts we are given (spiritual and material which includes sex) we are happy all of the time or most of the time. When we get rid of the duality, the divine is human and the human divine so there really aren't spiritual gifts or material, they are all spiritual. But for language undderstanding, I will speak duality. |
To what end? if God is both good and evil their will be just as much suffering in the next life as their is in this life. We do not face an impending hell we are already there. While there are things in this that we enjoy in the end they are all empty and lack meaning. We love but even that is not lasting and hard to find. Those we love reject us, children leave us, memory of love does not sustain us. No this life is by no means nor has the potential to be heaven an eternity confined to it would be torment
| Quote: |
IThe Golden rule says love god, your neighbor as yourself. That is the key. When we worship or look at our neighbor and ourself as worthy at all times, we are worshipping god. It is not like bowing before a king but rather it is raising ourselves to a throne and seeing all others as equal. |
"The 1st commandment is to love God the second is like it 'to love you neighbor as yourself'" There is a distinction between loving God and loving humans. We can not keep the "golden rule" one hateful thought makes us it's violator, one thing we should have done for our neighbor that we didn't do makes us a transgressor. We have no right to a throne, we deserve no glory and neither does any god created in mans image.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: |
So What you believe about God is that all is God and that God is all. God is both Good and Evil. We embrace the evil because we could not comprehend good in it's absence. But God is still not ultimately seeking our destruction so while being evil He is not malevolent. (let me know if this is at least close to being accurate) If so,
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God being good and evil is akin to negative and positive polarities in science. The evil as I used it has no moral judgement to it so it isn't a bad thing, but rather is a substance. Unlike the science polarities, we can choose which part of the god mix we want to cultivate.
Just as nature doesn't judge what nature is and just as we accept it, we divine humans as creators have learned to harness much of nature thus getting what we humans call more good in the equation.
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1. How did you come to know this about God? 2. It is impossible for God to be 100% good and 100% evil at the same time, so If all good things come from God those things can not be wholly good since God is not wholly good. Can you really say that all life and all experience is ultimately evil? 3. Life as we know it everything we know will be destroyed so how can you say God is not seeking our destruction?
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1. I never used the word know in that aspect of god. I replied to your question above of what do I believe. It is a belief and I love how many pieces of puzzles fall into place when I look at the whole picture of the pieces put together. It sure ain't gospel As I said, I'm easy about what anybody cares to accept as long as harm none is in play.
I came to the belief in a series of inquiries on my part while contemplating god according to what knowledge was available to me up to that point. That would be when I was 22 or so. I can't remember all of the steps at this moment. I was working with God being omnipresent and if that was true then god was in hell as well as heaven and god is on earth now and not just some future heaven. God is everywhere does mean everywhere, in, out and about So the essence or spirit is within each of us and all that we can see taste touch etc if I was correct. It also answers how we can have a personal relationship with god or Jesus and why we don't all get the same answers necessarily. The subjective part of our personality can get in the way and that is why we are encouraged to let the holy spirit, "whole spirit" guide us.
2.A coin is always a coin whether we view the heads or the tails. So is god always god whether we are looking at the evil or the good. Now I don't recall using 100% nor will I. I don't know where you are coming from seeing anything as 100% evil. Of course it can be but when we look at the whole picture from our god perspective it all fits perfectly. And it is all good. I am a optimist by nature so I couldn't possibly see anything as completely evil without looking for the good.
3. You say our destruction is the plan. How possible since from my view which is what you asked about, we cannot be destroyed. Only changed. I am still I from birth to death yet daily parts of me seemed to be destroyed yet the I was never destroyed, just changed. I get to experience myself as human and I get to experience myself without the human but I am still experiencing myself. So where is the destruciton?
I don't buy into a god that is perfect in the sense of all knowing or never changing. I can't give details but as I ponder it, I can grasp it. But in the scheme of things it doesn't matter whether I know that aspect or not. What matters is that I don't accept another person's god as mine and believe I will be punished for the beautiful things that god created in me.
| Quote: |
The only source you have for Christ's teachings is scripture yet the Jesus of scripture was very exclusive. "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father except through me" "I am not come to bring peace but a sword" (referring to the rejection culture would have to His message) "if any man does not take up his cross and follow me he can not be my disciple. If any man does not hate his father, his mother, his brother or his sister he can not be my disciple" You are not Christ's disciple if you reject His core message. |
Well, obviously you accepted something above as the core message and I didn't. Since all humans are cherry pickers, this is why we can all be right if we truly are sincere in looking for truth.
The core to me of Jesus teachings is love. Remember when Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love one another as I have loved you. Love and brotherhood is everywhere in religions and philosophies and the core of humans and is an attribute of god which Jesus is equally according to scripture. So there are many sources of inspiration of god, doesn't matter if Jesus name is there or not. Remember god is supposedly the greater of the two. So as I said, Jesus was my mentor but god is my teacher and god is everywhere. I was Jesus' disciple many years ago. I am not any longer, I guess I thought that would be obvious in what I am saying when I say we are all equal human projections in the mind of the god we are. So you and I and all humanity are equal to Jesus, just not necessarily in the role we play here on earth. Jesus said the first is last and the last is first.
As it happens everything you do mention as being core, I have done but it isn't as is commonly interpreted. I interpreted it with the guidance of the "whole spirit" and it really becomes lovely.
| Quote: |
To what end? if God is both good and evil their will be just as much suffering in the next life as their is in this life. We do not face an impending hell we are already there. While there are things in this that we enjoy in the end they are all empty and lack meaning. We love but even that is not lasting and hard to find. Those we love reject us, children leave us, memory of love does not sustain us. No this life is by no means nor has the potential to be heaven an eternity confined to it would be torment
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There will? How do you know? I do agree that if there is a hell it is life here on earth at times. But we are changing that to a paradise and it is just a matter of time if we work to gether that all of us can live in paradise here and now.
As to what you said about love, that is you not me. Love is changing but it is always lasting and is not hard to find at all. I call the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of happy because that is what all of us pursue here on earth. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within, why look here or there. Loosely paraphrased but that will do for now. So if the kingdom of heaven is perfect and is god's love, then since it is within us, it is always attainable. Have at it and don't worry if you slip out of it now and then. That's part of the learning process of how to balance the good and evil that is in us and when we find that balance then we do have heaven on earth.
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"The 1st commandment is to love God the second is like it 'to love you neighbor as yourself'" There is a distinction between loving God and loving humans. We can not keep the "golden rule" one hateful thought makes us it's violator, one thing we should have done for our neighbor that we didn't do makes us a transgressor. We have no right to a throne, we deserve |
no glory and neither does any god created in mans image.[/quote]
Again says you. But Jesus says forgive seventy times seven if we have to and that includes ourselves. That means we are worthy when we love ourselves as Jesus or god loves us which we are supposed to do according to scripture. That is where we can find love all of the time, god within. We are our greatest lovers when there is noone else around. That action then brings in other lovers like a magnet. You've heard that if you don't love yourself, how do you expect others to? They might but if you keep a cloud of unbelief around yourself, it won't permeate.
Man's image, let's see that would be the god that looks human? That would be the god that wants to punish for the slightest transgressions? That sounds like the OT god. But the NT god has a god that is loving and forgiving in parts. And of course there is no way that any book can understand or contain all of what god is.
But we can love god the best we know how even if we get parts mixed up and that love will still get through to God, thus us by virtue of it being us. But love cannot be forced so you are right if you want to judge yourself and others so harshly. But Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged and I would say that means don't tell "your God" that you aren't worthy. You have then just decided that you know more than your God who says judgement is mine. |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Spiderman could totally beat up Harry Potter.
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hillbillyatheist
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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nah harry potter could magically turn spiderman into a real spider and then step on him.
now superman could take on spiderman. just float out at distance and use his laser eyes to fry spidermans ass. |
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romans120
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | Spiderman could totally beat up Harry Potter. |
My two year old girl could beat up harry potter whats yer point?
Edit: I don't really see how my argument would be disagreeable to an atheist do you?
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | | Spiderman could totally beat up Harry Potter. |
My two year old girl could beat up harry potter whats yer point?
Edit: I don't really see how my argument would be disagreeable to an atheist do you? |
No, not disagreeable at all. It's just that arguing over theism and the supernatural, to an atheist, is a lot like arguing over which of your favorite comic book/movie heroes could beat up whom.
As you know, I used to agree with you whole-heartedly, so I agree with both your theistic argument and the fact that Spiderman could totally thwart Harry Potter's magic. I mean, all Potter really ever uses is "expelliarmus" and "stupefy". Both of which could be avoided by "spidey-sense". A quick web-ball to the face and a knock-out punch should send that kid to a quick reunion with Dumbledore. |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: | nah harry potter could magically turn spiderman into a real spider and then step on him.
now superman could take on spiderman. just float out at distance and use his laser eyes to fry spidermans ass. |
Spiderman would sense both Potter's and Superman's attacks and avoid them. I'm afraid that Superman's strength and quickness would end up being too much for Spiderman, though. However, Spiderman is much smarter than Superman, so you never know. Peter Parker could add kryptonite to his web formula and really mess Superman up. |
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