Joined: 18 Sep 2006 Posts: 4148 Local time: 9:05 AM Location: Dippin' my balls in it.
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject:
munky99999 wrote:
FlatEarth1024 wrote:
I wish you'd stop with the mental disorder stuff. Just because someone believes in an invisible guy who floats in the air and whispers soothing mantras in their ear doesn't make them crazy.
Besides, my uncle is Christian. Are you saying my uncle is crazy? Are you?
The actual argument doesnt say ALL believers are mentally deluded.
Ask your uncle or even try to answer these yourself...
1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
3. Despite his profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely.
8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his psyche (psychology).
9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
10. Individuals who know the patient will observe that his belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.
1. God lives in the sky?
2. No more sunday morning? no adultery? no eating shrimp? against abortion/condoms?
3. Has he read the bible? probably not but does he admit it? Is he aware of the ton of wierd things he believes if he believes in the bible... but doesnt want to admit?
4. haha kind of clear... believers often get really pissed at things.
5. a super celebrity bothers to care about him?
6. Not necessarily this kind of level... but ya.
7. Yep very very unlikely.
8. Kind of a rehash of previous points.
9. Unfortunately this one is a popularity one. Though still plausible... does he break #2 in a wierd way?
10. another popularity one.
I guess my attempt at satire and sarcasm missed the mark? I think religios are majorly skull-fuqued, personally. I was spoofing those who often commit the "Fallacy of Familiarity", the unofficial fallacy that states that nobody I know is delusional, no matter how wacky their beliefs and/or behavior. _________________
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4671 Local time: 4:05 AM Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject:
Quote:
I guess my attempt at satire and sarcasm missed the mark?
I caught it... just that some people wont and might conclude something bad...
I doubt you may much attention to youtube and the fake/parody christians. but many christians infact dont see them being fake but rather tell them to tone down the hatred. They dont realize the atheist is acting like a christian to make fun of the religion.
_________________ A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005 Posts: 1551 Local time: 5:05 AM
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:08 am Post subject:
munky99999 wrote:
Quote:
Ouch? (is a psych major)
Mental disorders were pretty clear for a while. Before, you know, the pharmaceutical companies got into it.
I think I might be a little more biased on that one... but pharmaceutical companies have actually done a huge contribution to actually HELPING those people who are not actually the "normal" in a meaningful way. Where one can actually scientifically show that the person is that way... rather than just behaviour.
ADD is the great example of this. These people are labelled as "not normal" they are pushed over into the category. Though again this is actually another big failure in the time of actual explosion. The products that are marketed for ADD are great. You can also measure with instruments that a child has ADD. Furthermore 1 drug is not the best for the each person. When measuring with instruments that the child has ADD or not... the doctors also gets other information which is necessary before prescribing these drugs.
The failure was that they werent doing these tests... were giving the wrong drugs to the wrong kids.
Pharmaceutical companies also push for "release dates." Look, that's well and fine for video games and books, but drugs tend to have adverse effects on people and if they're not tested enough then bad shit happens. There's also been a recent survey that shows that a lot of drugs just have a placebo effect, and that they aren't tested enough before being released to the public. That's stupid.
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On the otherhand you can look at the personality disorders... say well those aren't "normal" people. Push them over into their category and than somehow these people need to change or something... or consider themselves outcasts. For example Narcissistic or Schizoid personality disorders. You can't in any way tell me that you could actually tell me that any of these people who are classified under these categories... or the many others... you can actually MEASURE scientifically that the person is even this way. Yet they probably medicate these people with anti-depressants and anti-psychotics... not to mention loads of therapy... provided by who? the psychologists... for what reason? so the psychologists can bill people?
Actually psychiatrists provide the medicine; psychologists aren't able to prescribe anything.
Schizophrenia actually had a neurological basis until recently where tests showed that dopamine may not be the actual cause of it. Once again, pharmaceuticals push research...
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I'm sorry but the pharmaceutical companies are far far far from the blame on this one. I can find you a neuroscientist who scientifically shows the patients to needing the anti-psychotics and others. Where those drugs actually work great. I can on the otherhand show you the psychologist meeting arena and show you hundreds of people doing virtually nothing for these people.
Um, you're talking more about the drugs themselves, not the pharmaceutical companies.
Also, many psychologists are of the mindset that drugs+counseling is the best thing for patients, not just one or the other.
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Don't get me wrong. Psychologists aren't doing much for these people... I hope these examples I speak of have the patient willingly and freely looking for help. Not anything otherthan. However... psychologists DO help people significantly in many places. In Ontario psychologists run this one group who basically work with parents who have an autistic child. Nothing but superb shit coming from there.
Schizophrenia is helped along a lot through counseling, as well as children with ADD, but it's all about whether or not the patient wants to be helped sometimes. And it's hard to do that with children, too.
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Neurological basis should always be in a mental disorder's diagnosis. Unfortunately, a lot of the ones found in the DSM lack that.
That's the problem I have with psychologists honestly. If you can't show it on a neurologically basis... I don't think it should be considered with it.
Yeah, I plan to take neuroscience classes.
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Paris Syndrome? Seriously?
Ya i usually refer to this as the Bermuda triangle syndrome. As with the bermuda triangle... you can basically look at every bit of water and say there's a bermuda triangle there because of the apparent losses in the world. Just as this one... It orginally was noticed in italy... paris... jerusalem... and so many other places. People just see something that makes themvery very anxious. The first time I saw the CN tower in Toronto, Ontario, Canada... my heart raced. It's friggen gigantic. On clear days you can see the friggen thing from very very far away.
It's all the same shit, different places. I don't think each one deserves a different spot in the damn manual to be honest.
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I think I'm not even really suggesting a change in how they categorize. If someone doesn't like people and is anti-social. So be it. I just dont think anything should actually happen beyond talking however without a neurological backing.
Yep. _________________ "Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4671 Local time: 4:05 AM Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Pharmaceutical companies also push for "release dates." Look, that's well and fine for video games and books, but drugs tend to have adverse effects on people and if they're not tested enough then bad shit happens.
I dont think drug testing trials are actually cut short because pharmeceutical companies want their product on the market... All drugs go through the same testing. ALL the examples you can find of drugs doing bad shit... is actually from Canada. We test drugs much more than what the USA does. Bad drugs don't make it to the market because pharmeceutical companies are pushing the FDA to release their drugs. It's an overall failure of the FDA's drug screening.
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There's also been a recent survey that shows that a lot of drugs just have a placebo effect,
What what what?
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and that they aren't tested enough before being released to the public.
That is pretty much the fact why Canada keeps a longer testing period vs the USA. There are a number of examples every year. My favourite example... actually there's 2 good ones...
In Thailand they developed a drug for shedding fat. The literal special pill to fix obesity. It was in fact a real pill and it really had awesome stuff. So basically that company in thailand just started selling the product... they werent supposed to... thailand's equivalency for the FDA was testing it... Canada and the USA did the same... Everyone was still testing and than the USA finished their short testing period and said A-OK. Very very shortly afterwards because this company basically broke the law and started selling right away... there was people in thailand who were going blind. They weren't certain it was this drug... Canada or thailand one of them denies the drug because it has an over 80% chance it'll make you go perfectly blind. They drew the connection... and than the other country verified these results.
The other was Tylenol. It was like Tylenol 3s or 4s or something... basically if you took the drug... in less than 5% of people... it basically caused your heart to stop functioning correctly and move to an irregular heartbeat... than you'd have a heartattack. Pretty god damn common drug tylenol is... but 3s and 4s are actually prescription only.. but people were getting them for lots of things... "doc I've got back pain" here have these. It was a pretty uncommon thing... something that the FDA should have actually caught... except in some extremely rare occurance... in all the trials... they never saw this effect. So they approved it. Canada's trials on the otherhand had the same problem... justbecause of how rare it was actually happening. But solely because of our extended testing... we did find the problem.
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Actually psychiatrists provide the medicine; psychologists aren't able to prescribe anything.
Actually psychologists are often authorized to prescribe a number of drugs. They have to hold malpractice insurance and all that...but they can actually get that ability just like any other medical doctor.
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Also, many psychologists are of the mindset that drugs+counseling is the best thing for patients, not just one or the other.
heh. _________________ A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005 Posts: 1551 Local time: 5:05 AM
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:
munky99999 wrote:
I dont think drug testing trials are actually cut short because pharmeceutical companies want their product on the market... All drugs go through the same testing. ALL the examples you can find of drugs doing bad shit... is actually from Canada. We test drugs much more than what the USA does. Bad drugs don't make it to the market because pharmeceutical companies are pushing the FDA to release their drugs. It's an overall failure of the FDA's drug screening.
A lot of drugs in the USA aren't tested enough before they're released on the market. And yeah, the FDA is a joke.
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What what what?
Yeah, I wish I saved it, but there's a few drugs out on the market that really don't do anything.
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That is pretty much the fact why Canada keeps a longer testing period vs the USA. There are a number of examples every year. My favourite example... actually there's 2 good ones...
In Thailand they developed a drug for shedding fat. The literal special pill to fix obesity. It was in fact a real pill and it really had awesome stuff. So basically that company in thailand just started selling the product... they werent supposed to... thailand's equivalency for the FDA was testing it... Canada and the USA did the same... Everyone was still testing and than the USA finished their short testing period and said A-OK. Very very shortly afterwards because this company basically broke the law and started selling right away... there was people in thailand who were going blind. They weren't certain it was this drug... Canada or thailand one of them denies the drug because it has an over 80% chance it'll make you go perfectly blind. They drew the connection... and than the other country verified these results.
The other was Tylenol. It was like Tylenol 3s or 4s or something... basically if you took the drug... in less than 5% of people... it basically caused your heart to stop functioning correctly and move to an irregular heartbeat... than you'd have a heartattack. Pretty god damn common drug tylenol is... but 3s and 4s are actually prescription only.. but people were getting them for lots of things... "doc I've got back pain" here have these. It was a pretty uncommon thing... something that the FDA should have actually caught... except in some extremely rare occurance... in all the trials... they never saw this effect. So they approved it. Canada's trials on the otherhand had the same problem... justbecause of how rare it was actually happening. But solely because of our extended testing... we did find the problem.
Right. I think it's commonly known how much lobbyists control America. :\ The FDA is a puppet. >_> Not saying they do everything wrong, but it's enough to make a notice.
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Actually psychologists are often authorized to prescribe a number of drugs. They have to hold malpractice insurance and all that...but they can actually get that ability just like any other medical doctor.
What drugs? Because technically once I get my major, I'm not an MD. _________________ "Of the voluntary acts of every man the object is some good to himself." -Thomas Hobbs
"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci
Joined: 02 Feb 2004 Posts: 4671 Local time: 4:05 AM Location: Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject:
Quote:
A lot of drugs in the USA aren't tested enough before they're released on the market. And yeah, the FDA is a joke.
I still dont think it's that the FDA are cutting out testing from what they do for some people who lobby more. I'm pretty sure that it's just the FDA in of itself who is the one fucking up across the board. Than afterwards when they have to recall drugs... it's the big pharmaceuticals who get much more of the spotlight.
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Yeah, I wish I saved it, but there's a few drugs out on the market that really don't do anything.
Hmm as I read this this time... I do remember reading an article on this... if I also recall... they were all DIET pills or "all natural" kinds.
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Right. I think it's commonly known how much lobbyists control America.
Ya it's pretty unfortunate.
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:\ The FDA is a puppet. >_> Not saying they do everything wrong, but it's enough to make a notice.
I really dont think that the FDA is effected in that way... the people in leadership for the fda are typically scientists and for the most part not touch by such lobbying.
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What drugs? Because technically once I get my major, I'm not an MD.
well you dont just automatically get access... you need to go to the board... get authorization and allowance... than the drugs that you have access to are mainly the ones for the diagnosis, care, and treatment of mental and nervous disorders and illnesses. Once properly certified you can be a psychologist who prescribes. What drugs are available? well it depends where you are. _________________ A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Joined: 19 Oct 2007 Posts: 294 Local time: 4:05 AM Location: Aussie Land
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject:
Without knowing about this thread, ive been looking up mental disorders to understand my friend with bipolar disorder a bit more..
I found this dont know if you would think its related... if maybe its been posted already (sorry if it has)
Delusional disorder
Delusional disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis denoting a psychotic mental illness that involves holding one or more non-bizarre delusions in the absence of any other significant psychopathology (signs or symptoms of mental illness). In particular, a person with delusional disorder has never met any other criteria for schizophrenia and does not have any marked hallucinations, although tactile (touch) or olfactory (smell) hallucinations may be present if they are related to the theme of the delusion.
A person with delusional disorder can be quite functional and does not tend to show any odd or bizarre behavior except as a direct result of the delusional belief. "Despite the encapsulation of the delusional system and the relative sparing of the personality, the patient's way of life is likely to become more and more overwhelmed by the dominating effect of the abnormal beliefs". (Munro, 1999)
The term paranoia was previously used in psychiatry to denote what is now called 'delusional disorder'. The modern psychiatric use of the word paranoia is subtly different but now rarely refers to this specific diagnosis.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Indicators of a delusion
* 2 Features
* 3 Types
* 4 Treatment
* 5 See also
* 6 Further reading
* 7 External links
[edit] Indicators of a delusion
(Munro, 1999)
1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
3. Despite his profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely.
8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his psyche (psychology).
9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
10. Individuals who know the patient will observe that his belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien. _________________ We are just as meaningful,beautiful and loving without a God! we prove that just with our own existance. - Jezzica
Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 8036 Local time: 4:05 AM Location: D-brane
Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject:
A common symptom of religion is delusion. Often including notions of resurrection. But face it, you are not coming back. Well, no one has yet, with any convincing evidence, and an awful lot of people have died.
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