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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8947
Local time: 8:03 PM
Location: Colorado
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 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| drix41 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | bring with you the evidence God doesn't exist. |
If you claim there is a God, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. |
You must also prove your side though. If you hold a position in an argument, any position, than you must provide proof to back up your position as well. If someone says God exists and you follow with 'no he doesn't' you owe just as much of a reason for him not existing as he does for him existing. If you claimed to not know whether he existed than the burden of proof would be on him because he is the only person making a claim. |
Nope. Sorry. You only have the burdon of proof if you make a positive claim. You don't need to prove something doesn't exist if there is no evidence for something. Default is non-existence.
Prove Unicorns don't exist....how would you go about that?
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Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 6:03 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| drix41 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | bring with you the evidence God doesn't exist. |
If you claim there is a God, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. |
You must also prove your side though. If you hold a position in an argument, any position, than you must provide proof to back up your position as well. If someone says God exists and you follow with 'no he doesn't' you owe just as much of a reason for him not existing as he does for him existing. If you claimed to not know whether he existed than the burden of proof would be on him because he is the only person making a claim. |
Wrong, if something exists, it leaves evidence. Therefore I can spend time and effort to look for it to prove my case. But if something doesn't exist, it doesn't leave evidence, and so asking me to provide evidence that doesn't exist is futile and ridiculous. |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 22713
Local time: 6:03 AM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| thehellgate911 wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Quote: |
If God created the universe, then where was god? |
Anywhere, but without time being created God was in no place we could understand.
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For the first half of your post I thought you were a christian, but then you seemed to change your point of view in the second half. I'm confused.
And I am honest about my views on this with her, but I don't want to try and convince her of anything because that can be rude. But your responses to all my questions make a lot of sense, and you do have some valid points. We can't really know anything. But tell me, are you a christian? And what do you mean by "If she believes in the Christian God she's a lot wiser than any atheist on this forum."? |
don't worry... the person MOST confused about what atheod says is atheod himself.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8947
Local time: 8:03 PM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| Quote: | | don't worry... the person MOST confused about what atheod says is atheod himself. |
HHHAH...It's funny cuz it's TRUE!!!
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Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar.... |
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Nimitz
Guest
Local time: 9:03 PM
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thehellgate911Wrote:
| Quote: | I'm just worried that her belief in this stuff is ultimately a clear sign that there is a roof on her freedom of thought, and if we ever say.. get married or something, it won't work out because she can only think inside certain paradigms.
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Atheists and theists get married, raised families and live happy lives all the time.
Religion isn't the only thing in the world, or a relationship.
/married 25+ years to a Lutheran |
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drix41
N3WB PWN3R
Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 277
Local time: 6:03 AM
Location: Behind You
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| baddogma wrote: | | drix41 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | bring with you the evidence God doesn't exist. |
If you claim there is a God, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. |
You must also prove your side though. If you hold a position in an argument, any position, than you must provide proof to back up your position as well. If someone says God exists and you follow with 'no he doesn't' you owe just as much of a reason for him not existing as he does for him existing. If you claimed to not know whether he existed than the burden of proof would be on him because he is the only person making a claim. |
Nope. Sorry. You only have the burdon of proof if you make a positive claim. You don't need to prove something doesn't exist if there is no evidence for something. Default is non-existence.
Prove Unicorns don't exist....how would you go about that? |
Ok, my mistake. I didn't understand 
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jaycorath
Inoffendable
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 3291
Local time: 3:03 AM
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Additionally, the definition of god we’re usually given is self-contradictory. For instance, Christians tell us that their god is infinite but also personal. We don’t need to even bother with evidence since those two ideas are mutually exclusive.
Silly theists. Usually your god is logically incoherent and self-contradictory
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Celebrant: Forgive us, Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying.
Congregation: And bare-faced flattery.
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thehellgate911
Visitor
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 21
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Location: Eastsound, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Frog wrote: | | Lennon, you say that you talk to her about your views, how does she respond to your atheism? |
She doesn't mind that I think the way I think. She's not really religious, she just believes that there's a god and a heaven and hell out there somewhere. She says she'd rather just keep believing that than try and learn anything new because she doesn't like the idea of questioning anything that she's been brought up with. She basically said that she'd like to be willfully ignorant. That's what she said in her last email.
But anyways, about the question of time/existence, I have to say, there never was time and there never will be. What is time?
Time is an illusion that is caused by memory. No memory = No time. There is only the current moment.. and not even that, because by the time you talk about it, it's gone. And not just gone... Without memory, it never was!
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What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" didn't you understand? |
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joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 2096
Local time: 6:03 AM
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| baddogma wrote: | | drix41 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | bring with you the evidence God doesn't exist. |
If you claim there is a God, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. |
You must also prove your side though. If you hold a position in an argument, any position, than you must provide proof to back up your position as well. If someone says God exists and you follow with 'no he doesn't' you owe just as much of a reason for him not existing as he does for him existing. If you claimed to not know whether he existed than the burden of proof would be on him because he is the only person making a claim. |
Nope. Sorry. You only have the burdon of proof if you make a positive claim. You don't need to prove something doesn't exist if there is no evidence for something. Default is non-existence.
Prove Unicorns don't exist....how would you go about that? |
Sorry BD, but I think that what drix41 is getting at is saying that god does not exist is about as bad as saying that he does 
A better way to phrase it would have been that there is a 99.999999...% chance that there is no god, but since there is no conclusive evidence against it, there is still that .000...001% chance that he/she/it exists. However, there is so much circumstantial evidence against the existence of god that it's ridiculous to believe that there is one. This is really just a technicality, but I hold on my position that I will not believe that there is some intelligent being guiding/watching/etc us until I have real conclusive evidence laid before me
Atheod is making a claim that would require such evidence though, so he should present evidence before I will take him seriously
Claiming that there is no god with 100% certainty is just not scientific 
...and welcome to the forum thehellgate! |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7974
Local time: 6:03 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question. |
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| joshuas3521 wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | drix41 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | bring with you the evidence God doesn't exist. |
If you claim there is a God, the burden of proof is on you, not the other way around. |
You must also prove your side though. If you hold a position in an argument, any position, than you must provide proof to back up your position as well. If someone says God exists and you follow with 'no he doesn't' you owe just as much of a reason for him not existing as he does for him existing. If you claimed to not know whether he existed than the burden of proof would be on him because he is the only person making a claim. |
Nope. Sorry. You only have the burdon of proof if you make a positive claim. You don't need to prove something doesn't exist if there is no evidence for something. Default is non-existence.
Prove Unicorns don't exist....how would you go about that? |
Sorry BD, but I think that what drix41 is getting at is saying that god does not exist is about as bad as saying that he does
A better way to phrase it would have been that there is a 99.999999...% chance that there is no god, but since there is no conclusive evidence against it, there is still that .000...001% chance that he/she/it exists. However, there is so much circumstantial evidence against the existence of god that it's ridiculous to believe that there is one. This is really just a technicality, but I hold on my position that I will not believe that there is some intelligent being guiding/watching/etc us until I have real conclusive evidence laid before me
Atheod is making a claim that would require such evidence though, so he should present evidence before I will take him seriously
Claiming that there is no god with 100% certainty is just not scientific. |
Not really. Take the case of a murder. If I claim there was a murder, I must prove my case (me, being the police for example). But if there were no murder, there is nothing to prove. The default position is: there are no murders taking place anywhere in my jurisdiction. Only when there is a claim of a murder taking place must I act. Similarly, the default position is, there is no God. If someone makes the claim that there is a god, the burden of proof rest on that person. |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1805
Local time: 4:03 AM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I want everyone here to disprove that there is an invisible dragon in my garage right now.
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"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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thehellgate911
Visitor
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 21
Local time: 3:03 AM
Location: Eastsound, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Alright well thanks for the input everyone. I've got what I came for in terms of this thread. I'm gonna go and enjoy the rest of the atheist forums now!
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What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" didn't you understand? |
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lumpymunk
Forum Master
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 2096
Local time: 6:03 AM
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| aitm wrote: | Lots of good stuff for you to consider Hellsgate, but before you run off and follow lumpyspunks concept:
"So yes, while you can find fundies of all types including 'intelligent' or 'brilliant' the important thing to understand is that things only get worse for them psychologically unless the behavior is pointed out and corrected. If it's not, eventually it will negatively affect other areas of a persons life. "
You might want to reconsider telling your parents or that girlfriend yer considering that they are going to go fuckin nuts if they don't stop believin in Jesus Christ as lumpy says they will.
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I never recommended he do that. It's absolutely true that they are going "fucking nuts" as you coined it... without question. The time frame in which that occurs will probably vary from person to person, but it IS happening. Again, in this thread as in the last thread, tact is the prescription for "breaking the news" to someone about this. I'm sure quite a few of the people on this board are quite capable of subtly informing someone about how fucking crazy their viewpoints are without being condescending or hyper-critical... because generally speaking that is a very common criticism of atheists. "Oh they're so Condescending." I've developed quite a few techniques. One of the best ones is to just ask leading questions to the person and really have them probe their own beliefs for you, and speak them out loud so that they can really be heard for the ridiculous nonsense they are. Sometimes it helps someone to actually hear themselves sounding crazy, to overcome the crazy shit they believe. As far as that goes, your creative potential is the only limit. I personally would just not bother with the girl.
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Believing in gods and such is not normally considered a negative behavior.
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Not that "normality" is any kind of measuring stick anyone here uses. Atheism is "abnormal" so how about you take your majority vote shit and shove it.
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Now counting the hairs on yer balls as lumpyspunk does, IS considered a mite strange.
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Would you like the number? It gets a little difficult at times you know, because we lose hair all the time, grow new ones all the time... I keep a T chart though, and it stays within a 95% accuracy at all times.
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Remember, just cause Lumpyspunk is brilliant, and he is, don't mean he is right.
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Yes it does. |
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