I have a question.

thehellgate911 · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: I have a question.

Hi,

I'm brand new to these boards. I searched "Atheist forums" in google, and this is what it came up with. These forums look like my kind of place, so i'm really excited to join this community.

Recently, i've been emailing back and forth with this girl who seems really cool and intelligent and everything, but she believes that there is a God and that there is heaven and hell, even though she's not strictly religious. She doesn't go to church or pray, but she believes that there is a God and that there is Heaven and Hell, because that's what she was raised with, she says.

When I think about God, the first few questions that come to mind are: If God created the universe, then where was god? In the prologue to the Universe? Was there time then? How long did God float in nothingness doing nothing before he got bored and decided to create the universe? How could he exist if there was no space to contain him? And if there was space, that means the universe already existed when God supposedly created it.

Furthermore, if the universe had a beginning, what was there before it? I know the big bang theory and everything, but I personally think that the universe has always existed. Because our lives have beginnings and ends, we can't grasp the concept of something having always existed, but it's possible. However, i'm not closed to the possibility of the zero-point field existing before the universe, and exploding in the big bang, creating the universe as we know it. That's also fairly logical.

And about Heaven and Hell, the questions I ask are: Where are they? If we had more powerful telescopes could we see heaven and hell from earth? And if they are in a different dimension of space and/or time, then how does your identity, and your consciousness, and your body somehow travel through the universes after you die, while your body is rotting in the ground? How does it make that journey?

So, after asking all those questions, it becomes clear that of course God and Heaven and Hell do not exist, and all of that is just crap made up by the church to control societies and make people live in fear. But what does it take to believe in God? What does it take to believe in a divine, almighty being who was here before the universe, and consciously chose to create it!?

I really like this girl that i've been emailing, but i'm worried about the fact that she believes in that crap. So, my question is, is it possible for someone to believe in God, heaven and hell, and be brilliant, wise, and intelligent at the same time? It doesn't seem possible to me. Even if they can invent computers and solve tricky math problems, the person must be lacking some sort of ability to question their own thoughts or question their own beliefs. They must lack some screws somewhere in their brains, to be able to honestly believe that there is a heaven and a hell.

So that's my question. Can someone believe in that stuff and still be perfectly intelligent and wise?

Thanks,

Lennon

Raskolnikov · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject:

I don't think anyone can be perfectly intelligent and wise.
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Wander · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject:

Millions of people are perfectly logical and intelligent in every area of their lives, except when it comes to their religious beliefs, which most follow without question because of how appealing it sounds and how long it's been hammered into their brains. I suggest you continue your conversations with this person, but be aware that trying to force her into atheism or "prove her wrong" will very likely be counter-productive.
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thehellgate911 · Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject:

Nimitz · Guest Local time: 7:16 PM

Welcome aboard Hehellgate911.

thehellgate911 · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:05 am Post subject:

jaycorath · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:09 am Post subject:

welcome hellgate. I look forward to future forum encounters.

I think fear drives people to ignore the irrationality of religion. And most are able to compartmentalize their rational beliefs from their irrational ones. The tricky thing about irrational beliefs is that you can start to trick yourself into thinking that the irrational is actually rational. In fact, sometimes its the "smart guy" who is best equipped to do this. The idiot just believes because its convenient. The smart guy believes because he convinces himself that he's actually being rational. And its not just religion that causes smart people to do that.

You can be smart and wise AND irrational when you compartmentalize. I have an uncle who is very, very intelligent. He's a scientist, a doctor, and a teacher. He's brilliant.... But he's an evangelical. He was religious all along but when he had to battle with alcoholism he went fundy. He didn't magically become stupid or something. He's still brilliant. But whenever religion comes up I can just feel the emotion. He NEEDS god, whether god exists or is just an imaginary friend.
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aitm · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:53 am Post subject:

OF course they can believe in that crap and still be intelligent and wise. Simply because your brilliant does give you absolutes to truth. George Seldes complied a book a number of years ago called, "The Great Thoughts". lots of intelligent wise people of all faiths and beliefs. Being smart is no guarantee of being right.
Now then, one of your underlying notes was that you liked this girl. On that observation a little suggestion, don't be too adamant about your position. What I did with one girl friend was that I told her I would read the Bible just for her, and I did. After ward I asked her if she ever read the whole thing, when she said no, I told her, "tell you what, you read the whole damn thing and then tell me you still believe in this, because I sure as hell don't anymore." That piqued her and she did. Don't know what ever became of her though.
Anyway, after all, the point is to convince her to love you, at least for 5 minutes. Whats the use of millions of years of evolution is you can't get to the hibbity-jibbity part. hehehehe.
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baddogma · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:24 am Post subject:

Jkorath nailed it!

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SvZurich · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:42 am Post subject:

Welcome Lennon! Smile

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thehellgate911 · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject:

lumpymunk · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject:

To add,

Acknowledging that one can be "smart" or "intelligent" or "wise" while at the same time being a "fundy" is irrelevant. It's not about the type of person this behavior can affect, but what the effects of the behavior are.

Compartmentalization is a psychological behavior, to be clear, and the funny thing about it is that it isn't really compartmentalized... it might start out that way, but it is always expanding or contracting (i.e., it becomes a behavior that a person will rely more on, or less on). The behavior itself, once it becomes so prevalent within someones psychology through repetition, will progressively expand into all other areas of the persons life. It has the same bleeding affect just like all behaviors. It is the solidification of a ready made process for rationalizing contradictions within ones life, the more the processes is repeated the easier it will be for a person to just dismiss any contradiction... not just a belief about god. It's interesting to point out here that this is a natural reaction for human beings. When faced with things we don't understand, like contradictions, we are in a sense slightly traumatized by the situation... and compartmentalization is the behavior we engage in when we attempt to cope with the conflict because it does in a sense feel like we are under attack when we encounter contradictions, because the hard choice is to revise ones presuppositions and change or blank out. Contradictions are conflicts between either our own presuppositions and reality, to be clear, contradictions in reality do not exist... a contradiction is always the product of ignorance or misunderstanding, it implies a relationship between your consciousness and reality and that the two are at odds. The only resolution possible to stop the spread of the compartmentalization behavior (a defense mechanism) is to accept reality as it is.

So yes, while you can find fundies of all types including 'intelligent' or 'brilliant' the important thing to understand is that things only get worse for them psychologically unless the behavior is pointed out and corrected. If it's not, eventually it will negatively affect other areas of a persons life.

Compare the statements:
"I believe that the natural laws which govern existence apply objectively at all times, except when I'm at church or talking about god."
"I believe that I am completely commited to my wife at all times, except when I'm with my mistress."
...I'm sure you can think up some examples on your own.

Jutter · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject:

atheod · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question.

thehellgate911 · Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: I have a question.

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