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romans120
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 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | For the past two weeks I have been rereading the Bible (This will be the second time I have read it) and as I was finishing up the Book of Job and started chapter 42 I noticed this...
Job 42:1 - "Then Job answered the Lord and said:"
Job 42:2 - "I know that You can do anything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You."
I was always told that it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that God can do anything, but Job clearly says it here and God does not correct him, so the all-famous rock connundrum still has ground.
"If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that he himself can never lift?"
Also, I want people to understand what is meant by Mark 10:27 ("And Jesus said unto them: For men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God anything is possible."); I often see people misinterpret this verse, as most think that it defines God's power, this verse means only if the person is with God can they themselves make anything possible. Mark 10:27 shows the power one has when with God, but if we look at Judges 1:19 ("And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.") If Judah was with the Lord why could he not defeat the Chariots of Iron? According to Jesus if one is with God all things are possible.
Thoughts on this? |
God's omni-potence is a foundational belief that spans nearly all christain systems. So I agree that the Job passage is speaking about God's Sovereignty. I also would say the Mark passage is just as strong a verse in stating that God is soveriegn. Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited.
Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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baddogma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| Quote: | | Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited. |
Can I create a rock so big even I cannot lift it?
| Quote: |
Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
Nice cherry picking. Don't forget the other reasons we have shown. God cannot be all loving all powerful all knowing AND all Just with the universe we see today without the same problem of definition you present. It is an impossibility.
Also God cannot see the bottom of the sea (Amos 9) and those pesky Iron Charriots (Judges 1:19). Not to mention Jacob pinning god's ass till he cried Uncle like a little bitch in Genesis 32:24.
Also....your boss is not ALL powerful.....
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romans120
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Quote: | | Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited. |
Can I create a rock so big even I cannot lift it?
| Quote: |
Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
Nice cherry picking. Don't forget the other reasons we have shown. God cannot be all loving all powerful all knowing AND all Just with the universe we see today without the same problem of definition you present. It is an impossibility.
Also God cannot see the bottom of the sea (Amos 9) and those pesky Iron Charriots (Judges 1:19). Not to mention Jacob pinning god's ass till he cried Uncle like a little bitch in Genesis 32:24.
Also....your boss is not ALL powerful..... |
what cherry picking??? I was just responding to Rosclinov's comment about the rock conumdrum I can't possibly include every one of your arguments in my posts. I've dealt with the chariots thing on other threads. You have to admit the amos 9 thing is a stretch since the whole context is God proving his omniscience and He is implying even if you hide at the bottom of the sea He can still get you. It's not really an admission that He can't see the bottom of the sea. and I don't see how God allowing himself to be pinned is any different than allowing himself to be cucified. Summary of Iron chariots is the if you read the rest of the chapter you realize judah won there first because oh there faith but lost faith when they saw the chariots.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Raskolnikov
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| romans120 wrote: | | God's omni-potence is a foundational belief that spans nearly all christain systems. So I agree that the Job passage is speaking about God's Sovereignty. I also would say the Mark passage is just as strong a verse in stating that God is soveriegn. Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited. |
Of course it's not limited. Job says God can do anything and anything is well... anything!
| romans120 wrote: | | Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. |
So God is limited in that he can't create things that are out of his control. *cough* the devil *cough*
| romans120 wrote: | | Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. |
So free will is tossed out the window!
| romans120 wrote: | | Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. |
I like how you put egomaniac hehe. You have learned something here! ;D
| romans120 wrote: | | Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
Ok this is all fine and dandy except, we are not speaking about modes of termination, and my boss isn't claimed to be an omnipotent being (or even more so, a being that has the ability to do anything). We are speaking of a being, who can do anything, and his inability to make a rock he can't lift, and, just from what you posted, cannot create anything outside of his control.
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"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
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"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
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baddogma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| romans120 wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Quote: | | Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited. |
Can I create a rock so big even I cannot lift it?
| Quote: |
Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
Nice cherry picking. Don't forget the other reasons we have shown. God cannot be all loving all powerful all knowing AND all Just with the universe we see today without the same problem of definition you present. It is an impossibility.
Also God cannot see the bottom of the sea (Amos 9) and those pesky Iron Charriots (Judges 1:19). Not to mention Jacob pinning god's ass till he cried Uncle like a little bitch in Genesis 32:24.
Also....your boss is not ALL powerful..... |
what cherry picking??? I was just responding to Rosclinov's comment about the rock conumdrum I can't possibly include every one of your arguments in my posts. I've dealt with the chariots thing on other threads. You have to admit the amos 9 thing is a stretch since the whole context is God proving his omniscience and He is implying even if you hide at the bottom of the sea He can still get you. It's not really an admission that He can't see the bottom of the sea. and I don't see how God allowing himself to be pinned is any different than allowing himself to be cucified. Summary of Iron chariots is the if you read the rest of the chapter you realize judah won there first because oh there faith but lost faith when they saw the chariots. |
Nice job of wiggling out of those arguments. Let’s see you wiggle out of the all loving, all just, all knowing, all powerful one.
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romans120
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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[quote="Raskolnikov"] | romans120 wrote: | | God's omni-potence is a foundational belief that spans nearly all christain systems. So I agree that the Job passage is speaking about God's Sovereignty. I also would say the Mark passage is just as strong a verse in stating that God is soveriegn. Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited. |
| Quote: |
Of course it's not limited. Job says God can do anything and anything is well... anything!
|
Yup
| romans120 wrote: | | Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. |
| Quote: | | So God is limited in that he can't create things that are out of his control. *cough* the devil *cough* |
The devil can not do anyhing unless God permits him to do it. The devil does not operate outside of God's control, will or plan
| romans120 wrote: | | Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. |
| Quote: |
So free will is tossed out the window! |
yup
| romans120 wrote: | | Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. |
| Quote: | | I like how you put egomaniac hehe. You have learned something here! ;D |
| romans120 wrote: | | Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
| Quote: |
Ok this is all fine and dandy except, we are not speaking about modes of termination, and my boss isn't claimed to be an omnipotent being (or even more so, a being that has the ability to do anything). We are speaking of a being, who can do anything, and his inability to make a rock he can't lift, and, just from what you posted, cannot create anything outside of his control. |
I think you may have misunderstood my point. The question improperly shifts the perscpective of the object that is under God's soveriegn control. God does not need to be soveriegn over himself to be soveriegn over all things. You have to keep the God's claim of soveriegnty from His perscpective. When He says all things it means all things outside of himself, just like when the boss says all employess he means all employess outside of himself.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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romans120
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| baddogma wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Quote: | | Just because God's power is being demonstrated through the agency of man does not mean that it is limited. |
Can I create a rock so big even I cannot lift it?
| Quote: |
Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
Nice cherry picking. Don't forget the other reasons we have shown. God cannot be all loving all powerful all knowing AND all Just with the universe we see today without the same problem of definition you present. It is an impossibility.
Also God cannot see the bottom of the sea (Amos 9) and those pesky Iron Charriots (Judges 1:19). Not to mention Jacob pinning god's ass till he cried Uncle like a little bitch in Genesis 32:24.
Also....your boss is not ALL powerful..... |
what cherry picking??? I was just responding to Rosclinov's comment about the rock conumdrum I can't possibly include every one of your arguments in my posts. I've dealt with the chariots thing on other threads. You have to admit the amos 9 thing is a stretch since the whole context is God proving his omniscience and He is implying even if you hide at the bottom of the sea He can still get you. It's not really an admission that He can't see the bottom of the sea. and I don't see how God allowing himself to be pinned is any different than allowing himself to be cucified. Summary of Iron chariots is the if you read the rest of the chapter you realize judah won there first because oh there faith but lost faith when they saw the chariots. |
Nice job of wiggling out of those arguments. Let’s see you wiggle out of the all loving, all just, all knowing, all powerful one. |
*climbs to top of mountain begins shouting*
The Bible does not claim nor do I believe that God is omni-loving God's just because He is the creator of the standard no matter what you think of it. What are the arguments against the last two?
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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somehow, its even creepier that you worship a malevolent deity. do you have a problem with Satanists?
the whole concept of "what god does is good, because the definition of what 'good' is, changes to be what god does." is just childish and silly. its like that Twilight Zone episode with that omnipotent little boy who was a real dick. he got praised for whatever he did, because everyone was so scared of him because he had the power to destroy them with a mere thought. What was 'good' and 'right' was not consistent. when you change the rules of the game as you play to make where you win no matter what... well... thats bullshit. and thats my deep, technical and philosophical take on it.
THAT is sort of deity you worship, romans?
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: |
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wow romans... you admit you have no free will... so you dont wish to ever punish anyone in society for breaking laws... GOD is guiding these puppets to do those things... if you jail these tools of the lord... you are trying to stop God...
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A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| romans120 wrote: |
*climbs to top of mountain begins shouting*
The Bible does not claim nor do I believe that God is omni-loving God's just because He is the creator of the standard no matter what you think of it. What are the arguments against the last two? |
John 3:16?
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 4
4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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ugh.. its the "Might makes Right" concept... just because an entity CAN do something, it mean that its JUSTIFIED in doing it. how childish and barbaric.
Even IF a deity like this existed, i'd fight with every fiber of my being against it.
What a horrible, scary, evil, twisted and inhuman world you must live in, romans. 
to think that no matter what tortures, pain or suffering is visited upon you, even without reason or provocation, that it is somehow justified and deserved... thats just sick, man. No one deserves to live their life under that sort of soul-crushing assumption.
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | ugh.. its the "Might makes Right" concept... just because an entity CAN do something, it mean that its JUSTIFIED in doing it. how childish and barbaric.
Even IF a deity like this existed, i'd fight with every fiber of my being against it.
What a horrible, scary, evil, twisted and inhuman world you must live in, romans.
to think that no matter what tortures, pain or suffering is visited upon you, even without reason or provocation, that it is somehow justified and deserved... thats just sick, man. No one deserves to live their life under that sort of soul-crushing assumption. |
Q....F....Fucking T |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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just a kid hovering over an anthill with a magnifying glass on a sunny day...
sorry... i keep posting about this, but this deity concept REALLY bothers me. to think that the human mind and spirit can be so cowed by such bullshit.. infuriates and depresses me.
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baddogma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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I guess God IS Love answers that from Scripture no?
I agree Moloth. I would NEVER worship that asshole the bible calls God. Even if I had knowledge of his existence.
As soon as you DEFINE god, it is possible to prove THAT god does not exist.
Just say you have blind faith Romans and we will leave it at that.
Outside scripture you haven't brought any facts to the table since day one. You have only brought your interpretations of scripture.
You know how much weight scripture carries around here.
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Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
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kmisho
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | wow romans... you admit you have no free will... so you dont wish to ever punish anyone in society for breaking laws... GOD is guiding these puppets to do those things... if you jail these tools of the lord... you are trying to stop God... |
The lack of free will explains roman's behavior. He has no choice but to be wrong.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
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