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JarrardC.
Forum Plebian
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 191
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 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ZeeLaw wrote: | | JarrardC. wrote: | Why did you have to get into some petty argument with her in the first place? You should of just left her alone. This is the problem with atheists today, always having to spark some argument when a Christian express their beliefs at any time. It's like any time you hear something religious you just have to start an argument over it and try and remove their belief.
And yes I agree, Touched by an Angel sucks. |
She started the argument by calling them non-believers... It's his grandma someone in the family, what better place to discuss it?
Atheists need intellectual conversation. It's exciting to do this... Its not like he's in front of a church calling them all idiots...
Great read tho... if people have anymore of these stories please post. |
... Uhm maybe she called them non-believers because well.. THEY ARE non believers/atheists? I don't begin arguments by saying "Hey Daniel, you're a believer." He'll just be all like "Yeah... and?.."
Now it's offensive being called an atheist by a Christian? Secondly, debunking something with little to no evidence doesn't take much 'intellect' at all.
Thirdly, I wouldn't call debating ignorance exciting at all, it's rather frustrating and boring at times tbh.
| baddogma wrote: | | JarrardC. wrote: | Why did you have to get into some petty argument with her in the first place? You should of just left her alone. This is the problem with atheists today, always having to spark some argument when a Christian express their beliefs at any time. It's like any time you hear something religious you just have to start an argument over it and try and remove their belief.
And yes I agree, Touched by an Angel sucks. |
We aren't trying to remove their belief so much as point out where they are wrong in their logic.
Atheists have remained silent for too long. I for one don't care what others believe, but when they put their Faith in my face, it's on! |
You're casting doubt in their strong religious beliefs so they will stop believing and you just keep on bringing up points.. and more points... I mean seriously, will you stop trying to convert people into atheism (LOL) and try to do something more important like put an global end to brain washing or having religion as a subject and stuff.
Well in this case, the grandma didn't start the argument. I don't see anything about your grandma agreeing to a debate. You guys basically bated her into one with the comment about a god not existing.
"you cant be angry at God and not believe at the same time"
The obvious bait right here:
"shes right about one thing,you cant be angry at God and not believe at the same time, because you cant be angry at something that doesn't exist"
Why do you atheists have to always be in argument mode and be laughing at her beliefs "God doesn't exist hahahah"
Personally, I think it's just useless and unneeded to bait Christians into a debate as you won't do much. I mean you were practically begging for trouble when you(r grandad) ridiculed her belief like that.
It's reasons like this is why Atheists get such a bad rep all the time. You probably just worsened her opinion on Atheists now. |
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Vyrian
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Joined: 03 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about you guys, but the 1% chance that Christianity is real and there is a Hell. I'm so looking forward to it. Seriously, I would love to hang out with Andy Kaufman, Charlse Darwin, Chris Farley, Richard Dawkins, Lennon etc  It would be like Hellstock 09.
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Wander
Forum Leader
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 540
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Location: The Island of Koridai
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that you should toss some questions at her the next time you meet. Prepare a list beforehand and be ready with rebuttals to all the common answers. Ask her why she believes in God but not Allah, Xenu, Santa, or the Mother Goddess when they all have the same possibility of existing. Ask her the difference between an answered prayer and God going along with the plan he always had. Ask why God popped down to Earth so frequently in the Bible but not once in the modern age. Ask why only Christians claim to have seen Jesus - he has apparently never appeared to an atheist and tried to convince them to convert. Ask her when Jesus is finally going to get around to that "end is near" prophecy.
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Regarding creationists: Aren't these the same people who gave us alchemy and astrology, and who told us the earth, besides being flat, was at the center of the universe? Why don't we just kill these fucking people? ~George Carlin |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 2072
Local time: 5:47 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JarrardC. wrote: | | ZeeLaw wrote: | | JarrardC. wrote: | Why did you have to get into some petty argument with her in the first place? You should of just left her alone. This is the problem with atheists today, always having to spark some argument when a Christian express their beliefs at any time. It's like any time you hear something religious you just have to start an argument over it and try and remove their belief.
And yes I agree, Touched by an Angel sucks. |
She started the argument by calling them non-believers... It's his grandma someone in the family, what better place to discuss it?
Atheists need intellectual conversation. It's exciting to do this... Its not like he's in front of a church calling them all idiots...
Great read tho... if people have anymore of these stories please post. |
... Uhm maybe she called them non-believers because well.. THEY ARE non believers/atheists? I don't begin arguments by saying "Hey Daniel, you're a believer." He'll just be all like "Yeah... and?.."
Now it's offensive being called an atheist by a Christian? Secondly, debunking something with little to no evidence doesn't take much 'intellect' at all.
Thirdly, I wouldn't call debating ignorance exciting at all, it's rather frustrating and boring at times tbh.
| baddogma wrote: | | JarrardC. wrote: | Why did you have to get into some petty argument with her in the first place? You should of just left her alone. This is the problem with atheists today, always having to spark some argument when a Christian express their beliefs at any time. It's like any time you hear something religious you just have to start an argument over it and try and remove their belief.
And yes I agree, Touched by an Angel sucks. |
We aren't trying to remove their belief so much as point out where they are wrong in their logic.
Atheists have remained silent for too long. I for one don't care what others believe, but when they put their Faith in my face, it's on! |
You're casting doubt in their strong religious beliefs so they will stop believing and you just keep on bringing up points.. and more points... I mean seriously, will you stop trying to convert people into atheism (LOL) and try to do something more important like put an global end to brain washing or having religion as a subject and stuff.
Well in this case, the grandma didn't start the argument. I don't see anything about your grandma agreeing to a debate. You guys basically bated her into one with the comment about a god not existing.
"you cant be angry at God and not believe at the same time"
The obvious bait right here:
"shes right about one thing,you cant be angry at God and not believe at the same time, because you cant be angry at something that doesn't exist"
Why do you atheists have to always be in argument mode and be laughing at her beliefs "God doesn't exist hahahah"
Personally, I think it's just useless and unneeded to bait Christians into a debate as you won't do much. I mean you were practically begging for trouble when you(r grandad) ridiculed her belief like that.
It's reasons like this is why Atheists get such a bad rep all the time. You probably just worsened her opinion on Atheists now. |
When the grandma said, "that's something non-believers say," she just made an assumption about a group of people, "oh don't worry about it! you wont win anyways so just let them keep spewing ignorance!" sorry but that shit doesn't fly with me. I bet you would have said something different if it were a skinhead who said "a nigger would say that!" Fact is, it's the same exact shit and I won't tolerate it.
| Jezz's Grandma wrote: | | your going to be screaming out help help in hell, its not a nice place, when youll be weeping and wishing you listened to me. |
Sounds like she wanted to start shit to me.
| JarrardC. wrote: | | Secondly, debunking something with little to no evidence doesn't take much 'intellect' at all. |
I know, but it's so much fun!
| JarrardC. wrote: | | You're casting doubt in their strong religious beliefs so they will stop believing and you just keep on bringing up points.. and more points... I mean seriously, will you stop trying to convert people into atheism (LOL) and try to do something more important like put an global end to brain washing or having religion as a subject and stuff. |
Nothing wrong with doubting something it just means your actually using your fucking brain. Also, to me, this is a good way to stop the brain washing crap.
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"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
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Jezzica
Forum Plebian
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 294
Local time: 7:47 PM
Location: Aussie Land
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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JarrardC. my uncle that said that "bait" comment is Pagan he isnt an atheist, he doesnt like to be referred as one, because he's a Pagan...
No its not offensive to be called an Atheist but if they have a right to try and convert us we have just as much right to try and bait them, (its not really converting because atheism isnt a religion, its just a word that defines non belief in Gods/ reject religions)
Well isnt that the point? to cast doubt? if they doubt it anyway that shows they arnt so strong in their beliefs as once thought!
My uncle said that God doesnt exist i just agreed with him, my Grandma mentioned hell so i told her how i felt about hell and my say on it and asked a few questions, im not telling her to stop being Christian but i am showing her my point of view and why im not religious and like i said to her "i dont believe in any God"
Infact i dont want her to stop being religious because her whole life would be ruined because 1. all her friends are from church 2. it gives her something to do (e.g doing functions for the church, gets her out of the house) and 3. her whole life has been revolved around God, so i dont see her changing anytime soon anyway.
But i still have a right to have my say, because if she can i can aswell.
"try to do something more important like put an global end to brain washing or having religion as a subject and stuff. "
Jarrard, how do we do that without having a say about what we believe and installing doubt into the minds of Christians? if we dont tell them why we want it out as a subject and why we dont want brain washing it wouldnt go far, we need to speak up in order to do those 2 things you mentioned in the first place.
I wasnt begging for trouble LOL! that show was perfect timing to come out and say something, also she just assumed that they were non believers because they said "she must be allergic to God" in the show, also she was asking for it when she said that, because she knew my uncle and myself arnt christian, and my uncle is very arguementative, so even if i wasnt there, it would have happened.
Not to mention, she tries to talk me into watching Touched By An Angel, and its because she wants me to see that God isnt bad, and that angels "do exist"
(yes she believes they do exist, and she told me some story about how my grandpa and my uncle were going to the beach house and it was a rainy night my grandpa was getting sleepy while driving and "apparently" he saw someone sitting between him and my uncle in the car and it was an angel keeping him awake from an accident)
I said well he can believe it was, doesnt mean i will start thinking Angels exist now, because thats what she would want from that story, me to think "oh if my grandpa saw an angel it MUST exist"
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We are just as meaningful,beautiful and loving without a God! we prove that just with our own existance. - Jezzica |
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Jezzica
Forum Plebian
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 294
Local time: 7:47 PM
Location: Aussie Land
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Wander wrote: | | I agree that you should toss some questions at her the next time you meet. Prepare a list beforehand and be ready with rebuttals to all the common answers. Ask her why she believes in God but not Allah, Xenu, Santa, or the Mother Goddess when they all have the same possibility of existing. Ask her the difference between an answered prayer and God going along with the plan he always had. Ask why God popped down to Earth so frequently in the Bible but not once in the modern age. Ask why only Christians claim to have seen Jesus - he has apparently never appeared to an atheist and tried to convince them to convert. Ask her when Jesus is finally going to get around to that "end is near" prophecy. |
Thanks for that, if she brings up religion again i probably will, i have mentioned before, why Jesus doesnt show himself to us non believers but only believers and she said "you have to believe in order to receive christ, and feel him in you" i said "well i used to be a strong believer just like you till i was about 12-13 how come i wasnt shown anything? how come i was believing and asking to be shown but i wasnt shown anything then" she went speechless and said "well, he doesnt show everyone" im like "funny that you said you had to believe to receive him, and feel him in you, that means all believers right? why would he pick only certain christians, what makes these christians so special" and she went quiet.
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We are just as meaningful,beautiful and loving without a God! we prove that just with our own existance. - Jezzica |
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Wander
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Always glad to help. Be careful with questions though; don't start attacking or mocking her beliefs if you can help it. You do still have a relationship with her and you most likely value it, you just want her to understand why you believe what you do. Ask questions that reflect that.
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Regarding creationists: Aren't these the same people who gave us alchemy and astrology, and who told us the earth, besides being flat, was at the center of the universe? Why don't we just kill these fucking people? ~George Carlin |
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RyanDzundza
Sock Puppet
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Vyrian wrote: | | I don't know about you guys, but the 1% chance that Christianity is real and there is a Hell. I'm so looking forward to it. Seriously, I would love to hang out with Andy Kaufman, Charlse Darwin, Chris Farley, Richard Dawkins, Lennon etc It would be like Hellstock 09. |
1% lol your a bit optamistic about christianity, i like to think the chances of that happening are more laong the lines of 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003%
| Quote: |
(yes she believes they do exist, and she told me some story about how my grandpa and my uncle were going to the beach house and it was a rainy night my grandpa was getting sleepy while driving and "apparently" he saw someone sitting between him and my uncle in the car and it was an angel keeping him awake from an accident)
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as a comdeian once said (cant remember which), if people believe in gaurdian angels then they will also believe in heaven, would it not be right to conclude that the angels dont actually like them since they keep saving them from dying and delaying there acent to heaven
obviously religious people would come back to this and say something like god has a greater purpose for our lives, so were not ready to die, 
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Wander
Forum Leader
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
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Location: The Island of Koridai
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
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That's why he lets people drift around in the ocean for weeks, sit in a burning building until just before it collapses, and get stabbed dozens of times before he finally intervenes and saves them. For the experience!
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Regarding creationists: Aren't these the same people who gave us alchemy and astrology, and who told us the earth, besides being flat, was at the center of the universe? Why don't we just kill these fucking people? ~George Carlin |
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Klarky
Bag of Mostly Water
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Jezzica wrote: |
No its not offensive to be called an Atheist but if they have a right to try and convert us we have just as much right to try and bait them, (its not really converting because atheism isnt a religion, its just a word that defines non belief in Gods/ reject religions)
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The whole "offence" thing is a tricky one IMO. The way I see it is like this; "Atheist" is a word coined by the religious to describe someone who doesn't share their beliefs, It's more of an accusation than a state of being. So when they say "you're an Atheist", it's rarely simply a statement of identity, it's more of a "we have a word for people like you, and within my worldview it's a word that describes a position that deserves disdain".
Kind of like when a white supremacist calls a black man a nigger. It's his own special derogatory term to describe what he hates.
So the offence is "intended" it is of course up to you whether you "take" offence. 
- my 2 cents
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3064
Local time: 12:47 AM
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| pseudosun wrote: | | i could never say "bullshit" to my grandma. I used to hear hear rush limbaugh (yes, i listen sometimes), and he used to talk about how he like the show "House". Anyway, he doesn't talk about the show anymore; maybe he found out that the main actor is anti-religious? |
Yes, British comedian Hugh Laurie is quite the atheist...
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 5541
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Klarky wrote: | | Jezzica wrote: |
No its not offensive to be called an Atheist but if they have a right to try and convert us we have just as much right to try and bait them, (its not really converting because atheism isnt a religion, its just a word that defines non belief in Gods/ reject religions)
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The whole "offence" thing is a tricky one IMO. The way I see it is like this; "Atheist" is a word coined by the religious to describe someone who doesn't share their beliefs, It's more of an accusation than a state of being. So when they say "you're an Atheist", it's rarely simply a statement of identity, it's more of a "we have a word for people like you, and within my worldview it's a word that describes a position that deserves disdain".
Kind of like when a white supremacist calls a black man a nigger. It's his own special derogatory term to describe what he hates.
So the offence is "intended" it is of course up to you whether you "take" offence.
- my 2 cents |
It is tricky if we go for generalizations. The best way to know is to ask the person, what do you mean when you say that? I use the word atheist as a descriptive word of their world view, no more and no less. The same is true of christian, buddhist, catholic and so on. The latter believe in god or gods and or in the case of buddhism, it all depends on which sect.
Yet that tells me nothing more about the person unless I want to generalize or make up beliefs about them based on generalizations.
I would love to have heard the tone of her grandmother's voice in that discussion. When she mentioned hell, was it fear and concern for her loved ones? I know when I believed in hell that was my only reason for wanting to change someone's thoughts. That could easily be her motive in wanting her to watch the "Angel" show. |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6734
Local time: 1:47 AM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | I use the word atheist as a descriptive word of their world view, no more and no less. |
That's what words like monism and humanism are for. The word atheist is there to describe what is absent -not present- qua worldview.
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