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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 2072
Local time: 11:24 AM
Location: Las Vegas
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 Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| atheod wrote: | | munky99999 wrote: | | atheod wrote: |
Good thing God isn't "omni-". And no, not because there are working ideas which defeat "omni-" but because God was never "omni-" in the first place. |
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You are wrong...
Seriously...
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God from the Bible has been omnipotent for 2000 years...
...
Basically all monotheistic religions have God as omnipotent...
What the hell do you smoke honestly... |
Basically all monotheistic religions have God unable to do the illogical. |
I laughed at that.
| atheod wrote: | Which means, to most theists, God isn't omnipotent in the sense of the word many atheists use as supposed proof he can't exist.
And I smoke tobacco on occasion. Seriously... |
Then what is meant by Job 42:2?
| atheod wrote: | | The ability to do anything doesn't require the ability to do nothing |
Prove that statement.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 1:24 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Raskolnikov that's why I just stopped posting.. it was just tooo funny.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6734
Local time: 7:24 PM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | Atheod wrote: | | Basically all monotheistic religions have God unable to do the illogical. |
I laughed at that. |
Then you might also get a giggle out of George H. Smith' "Atheism; the case against god", because Mr. Smith also states that the general concencus among theoligians is that some lines need to be drawn in regards to what god can do.
I tend to disagree with virtually everything Atheod says, but still I have to say some cutting of slack is in order here.
_________________
~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2264
Local time: 4:24 AM
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: So I was rereading the Bible... |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | munky99999 wrote: | | atheod wrote: |
Good thing God isn't "omni-". And no, not because there are working ideas which defeat "omni-" but because God was never "omni-" in the first place. |
...
You are wrong...
Seriously...
...
God from the Bible has been omnipotent for 2000 years...
...
Basically all monotheistic religions have God as omnipotent...
What the hell do you smoke honestly... |
Basically all monotheistic religions have God unable to do the illogical. |
I laughed at that.
| atheod wrote: | Which means, to most theists, God isn't omnipotent in the sense of the word many atheists use as supposed proof he can't exist.
And I smoke tobacco on occasion. Seriously... |
Then what is meant by Job 42:2? |
God can do everything.
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| atheod wrote: | | The ability to do anything doesn't require the ability to do nothing |
Prove that statement. |
Nothing doesn't exist by definition. Nothing isn't something that can exist because if it existed it would be something, ceasing to be nothing. It's self evident that the ability to do everything doesn't include non-things which can't exist. |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 2072
Local time: 11:24 AM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question.
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2264
Local time: 4:24 AM
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
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Mr_C
Reckoner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6752
Local time: 12:24 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
Is your God bound by logic? |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 1:24 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| A fictional entity is bounded by no logic... |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 2072
Local time: 11:24 AM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
If the God can do anything he can make the damn rock. Would he be able to lift it?
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2264
Local time: 4:24 AM
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | A fictional entity is bounded by no logic... |
Even fictional entities are bound by logic. Unless you mistakenly believe meaning can be found in meaningless fiction.
Describe any fictional entities illogical aspects. Can you? No, you can't because illogical aspects have no meaningful description. Aspects with no meaning are irrelevant and can be discarded.
| Mr_C wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
Is your God bound by logic? |
Of course. Logic is self evident. The illogical is meaningless and thus irrelevant.
Last edited by atheod on Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2264
Local time: 4:24 AM
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
If the God can do anything he can make the damn rock. Would he be able to lift it? |
God can lift a rock. He just can't lift a rock which doesn't exist. |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 2123
Local time: 12:24 PM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
Is your God bound by logic? |
Logic is only relevant if your looking at the universe from the human perscpective and need to deduce answers that are unknown. So the question should be is God orderly and the answer is yes
_________________
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 2123
Local time: 12:24 PM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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you guys got wrapped up into my claim of what God's soverignty means but nobody really dealt with answer to the rock conundrum. so here it is again... atheod I'm particularly interested in your opinion
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Now as to the dilemma of the rock. As we have seen the Bible claims God is soverign (nothing is outside of God's control) Since nothing is outside of God's control nothing can increase in power so that it is outside of God's control otherwise God is not God. Since nothing is outside of God's control everything is being controled by God. Now The Bible also says God can not lie "Hebrews 6:18". I think the solution is in how we think through descriptive language. as an example let's think of an egomaniac boss you may have at work. Say your boss got a big promotion and is now heading up the entire company. He is describing to you his new range of authority. He says "I can fire anybody I want to in this company" - This is a true statement as far what it is communicating, but it is because we automaticaly make an assumption that defines the word "anybody". "anybody = everybody except the boss himself. The boss is apart of the company he can not fire himself because by definition being fired means to be terminated outside of your own will. If it is inside of your own will by definition you quit. Nothing can occur outside of God's will. It is paradoxical to think God can will for something to occur outside of His will. |
_________________
_________________
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 1:24 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | A fictional entity is bounded by no logic... |
Even fictional entities are bound by logic. Unless you mistakenly believe meaning can be found in meaningless fiction.
Describe any fictional entities illogical aspects. Can you? No, you can't because illogical aspects have no meaningful description. Aspects with no meaning are irrelevant and can be discarded.... |
You must be suffering from a severe drought of imagination. Fiction by definition means anything goes, including entities without an iota of logic... |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 2072
Local time: 11:24 AM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | In my version it says anything.
And how is lifting a rock one cannot lift nothing? It is apart of anything when I made made it a question. |
The act of lifting a rock which can't exist is nothing. Doing nothing and doing something that is nothing are one in the same.
| Quote: |
Definiton of anything - "in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all." (Websters dictionary by my desk)
-=Edit=- Lol same definition of 'anything' at dictionary.com |
Nothing isn't anything. God can do anything. A rock so heavy he can't lift isn't anything that can exist by definition. Lifting any rock of any mass under any gravitational effect is something. Lifting a rock which doesn't exist, one so heavy a God who can do anything can't lift, is nothing. The rock your question implies can exist, cannot exist by definition. |
If the God can do anything he can make the damn rock. Would he be able to lift it? |
God can lift a rock. He just can't lift a rock which doesn't exist. |
You seem to forget that, since he has the ability to do anything (Job 42:2) he can MAKE THE ROCK EXIST, but the next question is COULD HE LIFT IT?
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown
Last edited by Raskolnikov on Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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