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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1526
Local time: 12:20 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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 Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
That's mostly why I didn't say that, because it degenerates into things that are less and less logical. |
It is my understanding that you are a theist. What type of god do you believe in? Because I can tell form your answer that it isn't the Abrahamic God.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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GodWarrior98
Royal Citizen
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Local time: 2:20 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
That's mostly why I didn't say that, because it degenerates into things that are less and less logical. |
It is my understanding that you are a theist. What type of god do you believe in? Because I can tell form your answer that it isn't the Abrahamic God. |
A god of order, if you know what I mean by that. |
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josephpalazzo
Forum Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7142
Local time: 2:20 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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GodWarrior98
Royal Citizen
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Local time: 2:20 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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A mere rephrasing of the paradox will rule this out. |
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josephpalazzo
Forum Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7142
Local time: 2:20 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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A mere rephrasing of the paradox will rule this out. |
Not a chance. Try me... |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1526
Local time: 12:20 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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Note the question, "If God can do anything can he make a rock so heavy that he himself can never lift?" Also, if a god can do anything he can make another god that can do more than anything? How is that possible?
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1526
Local time: 12:20 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
That's mostly why I didn't say that, because it degenerates into things that are less and less logical. |
It is my understanding that you are a theist. What type of god do you believe in? Because I can tell form your answer that it isn't the Abrahamic God. |
A god of order, if you know what I mean by that. |
I don't. If he is simply a god of order he is doing a pretty bad job as far as I can see. What with hurricanes, wars, and blackholes abound.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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josephpalazzo
Forum Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7142
Local time: 2:20 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
|
Note the question, "If God can do anything can he make a rock so heavy that he himself can never lift?" Also, if a god can do anything he can make another god that can do more than anything? How is that possible? |
Do I need to repeat my post? He can make a stone he can never lift, but if he wants to, he can create a more powerful entity that could lift it and if need be, he can transform himself into that more powerful entity. So he can both create a stone he can't lift, but also can lift it...
This is where QM comes in handy...You know, is an electron a particle or a wave? Answer : both, even though one negates the other... |
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GodWarrior98
Royal Citizen
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Local time: 2:20 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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A mere rephrasing of the paradox will rule this out. |
Not a chance. Try me... |
Could God create an eternally insurmountable obstacle? |
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josephpalazzo
Forum Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7142
Local time: 2:20 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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A mere rephrasing of the paradox will rule this out. |
Not a chance. Try me... |
Could God create an eternally insurmountable obstacle? |
Why not? What could prevent God from doing it? An example would be his own permanent death. Would he need to perform it in order to convince anyone? Heck, he doesn't even show up on prom night, why would he acquiesce?
Anyway, God being an imaginary being can do anything, even die, resurrect, then die some more...  |
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GodWarrior98
Royal Citizen
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Local time: 2:20 PM
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
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A mere rephrasing of the paradox will rule this out. |
Not a chance. Try me... |
Could God create an eternally insurmountable obstacle? |
Why not? What could prevent God from doing it? An example would be his own permanent death. Would he need to perform it in order to convince anyone? Heck, he doesn't even show up on prom night, why would he acquiesce?
Anyway, God being an imaginary being can do anything, even die, resurrect, then die some more... |
God wouldn't have to do it, he would just need to be able to. |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1526
Local time: 12:20 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
|
Note the question, "If God can do anything can he make a rock so heavy that he himself can never lift?" Also, if a god can do anything he can make another god that can do more than anything? How is that possible? |
Do I need to repeat my post? He can make a stone he can never lift, but if he wants to, he can create a more powerful entity that could lift it and if need be, he can transform himself into that more powerful entity. So he can both create a stone he can't lift, but also can lift it...
This is where QM comes in handy...You know, is an electron a particle or a wave? Answer : both, even though one negates the other... |
but if he made a new being he himself wouldn't be lifting it. also, if he transformed himself into the more powerful being he would be violating the proposal.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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notsaved
Forum Plebian
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 219
Local time: 5:20 AM
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Omnipotence/The Rock Connundrum |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | For the past two weeks I have been rereading the Bible (This will be the second time I have read it) and as I was finishing up the Book of Job and started chapter 42 I noticed this...
Job 42:1 - "Then Job answered the Lord and said:"
Job 42:2 - "I know that You can do anything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You."
I was always told that it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that God can do anything, but Job clearly says it here and God does not correct him, so the all-famous rock connundrum still has ground.
"If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that he himself can never lift?"
Also, I want people to understand what is meant by Mark 10:27 ("And Jesus said unto them: For men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God anything is possible."); I often see people misinterpret this verse, as most think that it defines God's power, this verse means only if the person is with God can they themselves make anything possible. Mark 10:27 shows the power one has when with God, but if we look at Judges 1:19 ("And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.") If Judah was with the Lord why could he not defeat the Chariots of Iron? According to Jesus if one is with God all things are possible.
Thoughts on this? |
Maybe another question we can ask fundies is: Can God commit suicide? In a sense he did in the person of Jesus. God killed himself by sacrificing himself to himself. Yep, makes perfect sense right? |
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josephpalazzo
Forum Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7142
Local time: 2:20 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Raskolnikov wrote: | | GodWarrior98 wrote: | As for the actual question, there are a few solutions to it that I find suitable.
God, being omnipotent, would have the ability to remove his omnipotence from himself at any time. He could also do this by any means. Creating the rock would be an example of this. |
So you admit he can't lift the rock.
| GodWarrior98 wrote: | | Or, God is omnipotent as far as things that are logically consistent. |
So God isn't omnipotent. Thanks. |
Only because omnipotence is a logical impossibility. Of course, I could go the route of the fundamentalist and tell you that God doesn't even abide by logic. |
But then you would be in the pickle of explaining the answer of the question. |
So here is what God could do: he can create a rock he can't lift, just to prove you wrong on the "you can't create a stone you can't lift". But as soon as you say,"hah, hah, you're no longer omnipotent", he transforms himself into another God who can now lift the stone.
God ---------------1
Raskolnikov ------0
|
Note the question, "If God can do anything can he make a rock so heavy that he himself can never lift?" Also, if a god can do anything he can make another god that can do more than anything? How is that possible? |
Do I need to repeat my post? He can make a stone he can never lift, but if he wants to, he can create a more powerful entity that could lift it and if need be, he can transform himself into that more powerful entity. So he can both create a stone he can't lift, but also can lift it...
This is where QM comes in handy...You know, is an electron a particle or a wave? Answer : both, even though one negates the other... |
but if he made a new being he himself wouldn't be lifting it. also, if he transformed himself into the more powerful being he would be violating the proposal. |
Did God sign a contract, saying, I'll be honest with these puny creatures who call themselves humans??? |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1526
Local time: 12:20 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Did God sign a contract, saying, I'll be honest with these puny creatures who call themselves humans??? |
What? So this supposed omnipotent being can't accomplish a task thought up by a puny little human? Some God.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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