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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: |
Bozo is from the land of Clowns. He says, “Everyone from the land of Clowns is a liar”. Bozo is illogical. |
You've yet to describe an illogical aspect of this Bozo character. Simply stating he's illogical isn't a sufficient description. |
Your reply definitely proves to me you have never taken a course in Logic. That post is about the famous Liar's paradox that any student of Logic would have immediately recognized (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox). Bozo is illogical because if his statement is true, it must be false since he always lies. |
So now, as I asked, describe Bozo's illogical aspect. If fiction isn't bound by logic you should be able to describe how Bozo can both be telling a truth and a lie simultaneously. I think you will find that you cannot. Why? Because illogical fiction is meaningless and thus irrelevant. The only fiction with meaning is that bound by logic. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 8:51 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: |
Bozo is from the land of Clowns. He says, “Everyone from the land of Clowns is a liar”. Bozo is illogical. |
You've yet to describe an illogical aspect of this Bozo character. Simply stating he's illogical isn't a sufficient description. |
Your reply definitely proves to me you have never taken a course in Logic. That post is about the famous Liar's paradox that any student of Logic would have immediately recognized (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox). Bozo is illogical because if his statement is true, it must be false since he always lies. |
So now, as I asked, describe Bozo's illogical aspect. If fiction isn't bound by logic you should be able to describe how Bozo can both be telling a truth and a lie simultaneously. I think you will find that you cannot. Why? Because illogical fiction is meaningless and thus irrelevant. The only fiction with meaning is that bound by logic. |
Bozo is very meaningful: he proves that logic has limited applicabilitry, even though he is fictional. You are a fucking moron and a waste... |
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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4805
Local time: 11:51 AM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | A fictional entity is bounded by no logic... |
Even fictional entities are bound by logic. Unless you mistakenly believe meaning can be found in meaningless fiction.
Describe any fictional entities illogical aspects. Can you? No, you can't because illogical aspects have no meaningful description. Aspects with no meaning are irrelevant and can be discarded.... |
You must be suffering from a severe drought of imagination. Fiction by definition means anything goes, including entities without an iota of logic... |
Fiction that isn't bound by logic is meaningless. An illogical concept is either discarded by the brain or altered into something logical. You can't imagine something illogical. |
LOL, have you ever heard of Quantum Mechanics? How is an electron to be both a particle and a wave? Both pictures are mutually contradictory, yet defying all logic, QM is the most accurate science that was ever designed on this planet. Without it, TV's, computers and the internet would be impossible. Yet, here we are communicating with such devices...
Note: logic is a very restrictive tool that allows one to verify if statements are contradictory or not. It's like bookkeepping. By itself, it never yields new knowledge. |
I would submit that QM is logical. If it was not, we could not use mathematics to describe it with any degree of accuracy.
The illogic of wave/particle duality is, I think, due to the evolved limitations in our ways of perceiving. The subatomic world does what it does and it is of no consequence that there is no macro-analog. |
Sorry but that defies observation. In some events, electrons clearly collide and obey the laws of conservation of momentum and energy like billiard balls. In other events, they clearly behave like waves, interfering, diffracting and refracting -- these two pictures, waves and particles, are mutually contradictory on any logical level. Particles collide and bounce off, waves simply don't. This is true for photons, protons, pions, kaons, etc... |
I disagree. Saying they behave like waves and particles remains analogical with our macro-experience. Are you familiar with Richard Feynman's thought experiment of performing the 2-slit experiment with baseballs? |
Only that it cannot be explained by logic, precisely my point on this thread...
Note: I am not referring to Quantum Mechanics as a theory that gives stunning results which agree with experiment, but to the data itself. |
Only if you make the leap that it is what it looks like. I am simply saying you can't make this leap. It looks like it defies logic, but does it?
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2264
Local time: 11:51 AM
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: |
Bozo is from the land of Clowns. He says, “Everyone from the land of Clowns is a liar”. Bozo is illogical. |
You've yet to describe an illogical aspect of this Bozo character. Simply stating he's illogical isn't a sufficient description. |
Your reply definitely proves to me you have never taken a course in Logic. That post is about the famous Liar's paradox that any student of Logic would have immediately recognized (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox). Bozo is illogical because if his statement is true, it must be false since he always lies. |
So now, as I asked, describe Bozo's illogical aspect. If fiction isn't bound by logic you should be able to describe how Bozo can both be telling a truth and a lie simultaneously. I think you will find that you cannot. Why? Because illogical fiction is meaningless and thus irrelevant. The only fiction with meaning is that bound by logic. |
Bozo is very meaningful: he proves that logic has limited applicabilitry, even though he is fictional. You are a fucking moron and a waste... |
Profanity and insults are no substitute for intelligent debate. They tend to help incite a rabble type atmosphere, thus masking weak arguments, but that's about it. And you've shown nothing meaningful about your fictional characters illogical aspects. My point that even fictional characters are bound by logic holds true.
Atheists latch on to the stupidest arguments sometimes to prove God can't exist. You should stick to your lack of belief, it suits you better. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 8:51 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | A fictional entity is bounded by no logic... |
Even fictional entities are bound by logic. Unless you mistakenly believe meaning can be found in meaningless fiction.
Describe any fictional entities illogical aspects. Can you? No, you can't because illogical aspects have no meaningful description. Aspects with no meaning are irrelevant and can be discarded.... |
You must be suffering from a severe drought of imagination. Fiction by definition means anything goes, including entities without an iota of logic... |
Fiction that isn't bound by logic is meaningless. An illogical concept is either discarded by the brain or altered into something logical. You can't imagine something illogical. |
LOL, have you ever heard of Quantum Mechanics? How is an electron to be both a particle and a wave? Both pictures are mutually contradictory, yet defying all logic, QM is the most accurate science that was ever designed on this planet. Without it, TV's, computers and the internet would be impossible. Yet, here we are communicating with such devices...
Note: logic is a very restrictive tool that allows one to verify if statements are contradictory or not. It's like bookkeepping. By itself, it never yields new knowledge. |
I would submit that QM is logical. If it was not, we could not use mathematics to describe it with any degree of accuracy.
The illogic of wave/particle duality is, I think, due to the evolved limitations in our ways of perceiving. The subatomic world does what it does and it is of no consequence that there is no macro-analog. |
Sorry but that defies observation. In some events, electrons clearly collide and obey the laws of conservation of momentum and energy like billiard balls. In other events, they clearly behave like waves, interfering, diffracting and refracting -- these two pictures, waves and particles, are mutually contradictory on any logical level. Particles collide and bounce off, waves simply don't. This is true for photons, protons, pions, kaons, etc... |
I disagree. Saying they behave like waves and particles remains analogical with our macro-experience. Are you familiar with Richard Feynman's thought experiment of performing the 2-slit experiment with baseballs? |
Only that it cannot be explained by logic, precisely my point on this thread...
Note: I am not referring to Quantum Mechanics as a theory that gives stunning results which agree with experiment, but to the data itself. |
Only if you make the leap that it is what it looks like. I am simply saying you can't make this leap. It looks like it defies logic, but does it?
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Yes it does. There are only two possible ways to tranfer energy from point A to point B: via a particle or a wave. No one has ever devised a third way. Either an electron is a particle or a wave. The data shows that in some events, the electron is a particle; in other events, it is a wave. Particles shot at a two-slit experiment will leave an interference pattern, but it is totally different than the interference pattern produced by waves through the 2-slit. Since waves and particles have mutually exlusive properties, Nature tells us that it does not conform to our mental concept of logic.
Logic is a human concept, and there is no guarantee that how the universe works will fit into that. It would be nice, but to believe that is naive and wishful thinking. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 8:51 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: |
Bozo is from the land of Clowns. He says, “Everyone from the land of Clowns is a liar”. Bozo is illogical. |
You've yet to describe an illogical aspect of this Bozo character. Simply stating he's illogical isn't a sufficient description. |
Your reply definitely proves to me you have never taken a course in Logic. That post is about the famous Liar's paradox that any student of Logic would have immediately recognized (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox). Bozo is illogical because if his statement is true, it must be false since he always lies. |
So now, as I asked, describe Bozo's illogical aspect. If fiction isn't bound by logic you should be able to describe how Bozo can both be telling a truth and a lie simultaneously. I think you will find that you cannot. Why? Because illogical fiction is meaningless and thus irrelevant. The only fiction with meaning is that bound by logic. |
Bozo is very meaningful: he proves that logic has limited applicabilitry, even though he is fictional. You are a fucking moron and a waste... |
Profanity and insults are no substitute for intelligent debate. They tend to help incite a rabble type atmosphere, thus masking weak arguments, but that's about it. And you've shown nothing meaningful about your fictional characters illogical aspects. My point that even fictional characters are bound by logic holds true.
Atheists latch on to the stupidest arguments sometimes to prove God can't exist. You should stick to your lack of belief, it suits you better. |
Hey, fucking moron, the liar's paradox has nothing to do with God. It was discovered by Epimenides of Knossos (circa 600 BC). It was elaborated by Bertrand Russell, which led to the most important theorem in math, Godel's Incomplete Theorem.
You are so fucking ignorant and disgusting, and a fucking total waste. You deserve to be insulted... |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 9908
Local time: 10:51 AM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Profanity and insults are no substitute for intelligent debate. They tend to help incite a rabble type atmosphere, thus masking weak arguments, but that's about it. And you've shown nothing meaningful about your fictional characters illogical aspects. My point that even fictional characters are bound by logic holds true.
Atheists latch on to the stupidest arguments sometimes to prove God can't exist. You should stick to your lack of belief, it suits you better. |
You are incapable of intelligent debate, profanity is all that suits your logic, you half whit. Logic isn't for you, stick to your religion. And PLEASE find a fucking theist site where your bullshit makes sense to the flock of like minded morons.
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 8:51 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| theist site?!? He was probably banned from all of them... he's bad pr... |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 9908
Local time: 10:51 AM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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ATHEOD
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Atheod in an atheist forum
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 8:51 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | ATHEOD
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LOL... |
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atheod
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 2264
Local time: 11:51 AM
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Quote: |
Profanity and insults are no substitute for intelligent debate. They tend to help incite a rabble type atmosphere, thus masking weak arguments, but that's about it. And you've shown nothing meaningful about your fictional characters illogical aspects. My point that even fictional characters are bound by logic holds true.
Atheists latch on to the stupidest arguments sometimes to prove God can't exist. You should stick to your lack of belief, it suits you better. |
You are incapable of intelligent debate, profanity is all that suits your logic, you half whit. Logic isn't for you, stick to your religion. And PLEASE find a fucking theist site where your bullshit makes sense to the flock of like minded morons. |
I'm not the one trying to argue the impossible is something that can exist. Atheists should be smarter then that. The fact that you aren't is evidence that you're as moronic as you claim theists are, simply minus the God. |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 2072
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ok so I've been giving a lot of thought to the question that was inevitably being brought up at every conclusion: "Does the ability to do anything also include the ability to do nothing?"
After giving a long hard thought about it I have came to a conclusion based on the very definition of anything. Yes, the ability to do anything must also contain the ability to do nothing. Since anything means in any degree; to any extent; in any way at all
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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Unbeliever
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 2725
Local time: 6:51 PM
Location: The exact center of my observable universe
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | Are you referring to this, Hit_me_up?
| Quote: | War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
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If so, you needn't worry about the OT/NT contrast, because Christians believe all of the canonized texts were inspired by the same God.
I just wonder if the apologetic would be, "These two things are not mutually exclusive. After all, God created them both". Know what I mean? |
How is it that God is "not a man" | Quote: | | And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he [is] not a man, that he should repent. |
1Sa 15:29
and yet, God "is a man" of war? | Quote: | | EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. |
EXO 15:3
Can God be both "a man" and "not a man" at the same time?
I'm confused, but since God is not the author of confusion (1Cr 14:33 "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." ), then who wrote the Bible?
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Only those with weak faith feel threatened by those with no faith.
2000 years of Christianity - haven't we wasted enough time!?
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Mr_C
Reckoner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6752
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Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | Are you referring to this, Hit_me_up?
| Quote: | War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
|
If so, you needn't worry about the OT/NT contrast, because Christians believe all of the canonized texts were inspired by the same God.
I just wonder if the apologetic would be, "These two things are not mutually exclusive. After all, God created them both". Know what I mean? |
How is it that God is "not a man" | Quote: | | And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he [is] not a man, that he should repent. |
1Sa 15:29
and yet, God "is a man" of war? | Quote: | | EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. |
EXO 15:3
Can God be both "a man" and "not a man" at the same time?
I'm confused, but since God is not the author of confusion (1Cr 14:33 "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." ), then who wrote the Bible? |
It might help to do some research on the Hebrew text in Exodus. The word "man" may not have been used at all. Instead, a masculine "it" or something like that may have been used. But it could easily read "man" as well. I don't have the time to research it myself atm, but a couple of google searches should get you the needed info. Try this link for starters. |
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