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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 3:03 PM
Location: Next door.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Well what's UN-Canadian about violence anyway? Our history is full of violence and atrocities just like every other nation. |
It's not the violence... but it's the against Canada violence that would be un-canadian. |
Acording to whom?
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| Quote: | If we want a revolution to have any meaningful effect other than just getting rid of some old ass holes, in exchange for some new ones, at the cost of human life, it has to be a battle won in the mind. IE: you can't have a violent revolution against racism. Even if you beat-up every politician who supports racist policy, it wont make any difference if most of the country is still racist.
Like wise, if Steven Harper managed to get an abortion ban in place, it wouldn't be the IDEA of abortion being wrong that the government would use to prevent abortions. It would be police, with GUNS. |
That's just it... diversity will always have people who wishes to do things that we in our minds do not want to happen. The revolution of abe lincoln's against slavery while not necessarily needing to be violent... he couldn't win the people's minds... |
So he had them shoot each other instead, and a hundred years later there were still race laws. If you think the cival war was about slavery then I'll just defer to HBA, and Kob.
| Quote: | | there are people today who would love to take advantage of slaves. They do the minimum and therefore are running sweat shops. If they didnt have to pay these workers at all... pow even more profit. |
What's your point? Some people think women should be bare foot and pregnant in the kitchen. Do you think that idea is gonna fly?
| Quote: | | Government is here to reduce harm. |
Well we are in big fucken trouble then.
| Quote: | | If it's creating harm... than it needs to change. I dont see where the government itself is a harmful thing in of itself. |
Well assuming it's own criteria, democratic government only changes after it's created harm. It's intrinsically harmful by it's very mechanism.
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
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the supreme munky's word isnt good enough?
| Quote: | | If you think the cival war was about slavery then I'll just defer to HBA, and Kob. |
The coexistence of a slave-owning South with an increasingly anti-slavery North made conflict inevitable. Lincoln did not propose federal laws against slavery where it already existed, but he had, in his 1858 House Divided Speech, expressed a desire to "arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction".
Southern fears of losing control of the federal government to antislavery forces, and Northern fears that the slave power already controlled the government, brought the crisis to a head in the late 1850s. Sectional disagreements over the morality of slavery, the scope of democracy and the economic merits of free labor vs. slave plantations
Wiki goes on much further... but really... it's clearly evident that slavery was on of the big issues causing the war. It sounds almost as if you are trying to say that the civil war was not about slavery at all.
| Quote: | | What's your point? Some people think women should be bare foot and pregnant in the kitchen. Do you think that idea is gonna fly? |
It does fly... there are many women who do play that role. It's their right to do so... it's also the right of the man to go through women trying to find such women. It does indeed happen.
| Quote: | | Well we are in big fucken trouble then. |
How so?
| Quote: | | Well assuming it's own criteria, democratic government only changes after it's created harm. |
This is fairly untrue. Sometimes yes... it has to change because it did harm. Definately not always.
| Quote: | | It's intrinsically harmful by it's very mechanism. |
How?
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12865
Local time: 3:03 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | CET wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | CET wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | CET wrote: | | I like that AF has a "freedom of speech" style of rule. I don't want to turn into ChristianF0rums, where they ban everyone who doesn't kiss Jesus' ass they way they want them to. |
why are you worried about that happening?
that hasn't happened with the other rules here.
as i said, i trust the Mods here. |
I'm answering the question on whether or not the members should be allowed to vote someone to be banned. My answer was no, and that was my explanation. Was it too deep into the thread to be clear on that? I'm sure the thread has been THOROUGHLY derailed at this point, as is usual on AF.
YES, I haven't read the thread, I'll just make that clear now before someone else does.  |
i voted "no" as well, in this thread.
i voted a vehement YES in the anti-troll rule thread. |
Anti-troll thread? Haven't seen it. |
http://www.atheistforums.com/new-trolling-rule-t6276.html |
I'm there, ty.
_________________
Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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SpecterOpacus
Divine Intervention saves raids.
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 1551
Local time: 7:03 PM
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dude I jump to page 10 and I see a bunch of shit about violence and slavery.
If members of the boards can't even fucking stay on topic, then why the hell should we have them vote on bans?
/checks no
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"Those who are obsessed with practice, but have no science, are like a pilot out with no tiller or compass..." -Leonardo da Vinci |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SpecterOpacus wrote: | Dude I jump to page 10 and I see a bunch of shit about violence and slavery.
If members of the boards can't even fucking stay on topic, then why the hell should we have them vote on bans?
/checks no |
Hear, hear... |
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Mr_C
Reckoner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6752
Local time: 5:03 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well, right now, 92% of us are afraid we would personally be "voted off the island", lol.
_________________
"If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?"
Carl Sagan
The Atheist Forums Rules
Summary: Just play nice, mmkay? |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | Well, right now, 92% of us are afraid we would personally be "voted off the island", lol. |
The other 8% are actually those of us who wont even get a vote... we will just be taken out back and shot.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 3:03 PM
Location: Next door.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: |
| Quote: | | If you think the cival war was about slavery then I'll just defer to HBA, and Kob. |
Wiki goes on much further... but really... it's clearly evident that slavery was on of the big issues causing the war. |
That's not unlike saying that the issue of "democracy in Iraq" was a big cause of the Iraq war.
| Quote: | | It sounds almost as if you are trying to say that the civil war was not about slavery at all. |
Well it doesn't mater how *almost* YOU think something might sound.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Well assuming it's own criteria, democratic government only changes after it's created harm. |
This is fairly untrue. Sometimes yes... it has to change because it did harm. Definately not always. |
They get elected out for doing a GOOD job?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | It's intrinsically harmful by it's very mechanism. |
How? |
Well think about it for a second. Why do we have elections in the first place?
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That's not unlike saying that the issue of "democracy in Iraq" was a big cause of the Iraq war. |
I think that's a fairly incorrect statement. Spread democracy wasnt the reason to go to iraq. It was wmds and 9/11. Both of which were false reasons to start war. Slavery was the start reason for the civil war... because slavery was indeed happening.
| Quote: | | Well think about it for a second. Why do we have elections in the first place? |
because the people's opinions change and the politicians typically dont. A population might be pro-war so they vote bush in... than they are pro-peace later and dont want him any longer.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 3:03 PM
Location: Next door.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | Quote: | | That's not unlike saying that the issue of "democracy in Iraq" was a big cause of the Iraq war. |
I think that's a fairly incorrect statement. |
Your fairly not reading carefully enough.
| Quote: | | Spread democracy wasnt the reason to go to iraq. It was wmds and 9/11. Both of which were false reasons to start war. |
No shit. So what's a good way to justify a war?
| Quote: | | Slavery was the start reason for the civil war... because slavery was indeed happening. |
Dictatorship was indeed happening in Iraq.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Well think about it for a second. Why do we have elections in the first place? |
because the people's opinions change and the politicians typically dont. A population might be pro-war so they vote bush in... than they are pro-peace later and dont want him any longer. |
Does this happen at random for no reason at all? Why do you think some one would change there stance from PRO to NO?
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No shit. So what's a good way to justify a war? |
I'm not a war person myself. I support peace keeping and situations where it's so easily clearly evident we should be there. Such as Canada joining the war for WW2.
| Quote: | | Dictatorship was indeed happening in Iraq. |
dictatorship is not necessarily an evil thing. Even than... it's not a very good reason to go to iraq because there are soo many dictatorships around the world. Slavery on the otherhand is a bad thing.
| Quote: | | Does this happen at random for no reason at all? Why do you think some one would change there stance from PRO to NO? |
Things that happen during the war and to the people who perpetuate the war. Such as the reasons for going to the war have been proven false. Or the war is grim and cannot be won.
There are sooo many other reasons people might change their minds.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 3:03 PM
Location: Next door.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | Quote: | | No shit. So what's a good way to justify a war? |
I'm not a war person myself. I support peace keeping and situations where it's so easily clearly evident we should be there. Such as Canada joining the war for WW2. |
I didn't ask you if you were a "war person". Read more carefully.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Dictatorship was indeed happening in Iraq. |
dictatorship is not necessarily an evil thing. |
Well if that's the case then neither is slavery.
| Quote: | | Even than... it's not a very good reason to go to iraq because there are soo many dictatorships around the world. Slavery on the otherhand is a bad thing. |
"Not necessarily."
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Does this happen at random for no reason at all? Why do you think some one would change there stance from PRO to NO? |
Things that happen during the war and to the people who perpetuate the war. Such as the reasons for going to the war have been proven false. Or the war is grim and cannot be won. |
What would you say was "grim" about an un-winnable war that shouldn't have happened in the first place?
| Quote: | | There are sooo many other reasons people might change their minds. |
Sure. Is this conversation GOING somewhere munky? Are you just trying to divert my attention from the drugs thread?
I already posted a reply, so the ball is in your court.
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I didn't ask you if you were a "war person". Read more carefully. |
Yes and I answered the question in that I support defensive means and peacekeeping.
| Quote: | | Well if that's the case then neither is slavery. |
Actually morally slavery is always wrong. Absolute.
| Quote: | | What would you say was "grim" about an un-winnable war that shouldn't have happened in the first place? |
I wasnt actually refering to iraq on that one. Infact vietnam came to my mind... but I meant it as generic.
Lets say hypothetically that spain was holding a new inquisition and was exterminating people... lets say only France goes to war with spain... well most people would support that war... but lets say france's military is shit and they start loosing the war and the war eventually becomes unwinnable. French soldiers start dieing more and more and more every day. Not as many people will support that war any more.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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cheapsuprise
Liberated
Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7288
Local time: 3:03 PM
Location: Next door.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | Quote: | | I didn't ask you if you were a "war person". Read more carefully. |
Yes and I answered the question in that I support defensive means and peacekeeping. |
So you support the war in Iraq then. According to the above "criteria" it was fully justified as self defence, and now it's fully justified as peacekeeping. Here is a hint, they had bullshit back in the 1860's too.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Well if that's the case then neither is slavery. |
Actually morally slavery is always wrong. Absolute. |
Then so is dictatorship. You can't have it both ways.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | What would you say was "grim" about an un-winnable war that shouldn't have happened in the first place? |
I wasnt actually refering to iraq on that one. Infact vietnam came to my mind... but I meant it as generic. |
I don't really give a shit munky. Just get to your point as fast as possible.
| Quote: | | Lets say hypothetically that spain was holding a new inquisition and was exterminating people... lets say only France goes to war with spain... well most people would support that war... but lets say france's military is shit and they start loosing the war and the war eventually becomes unwinnable. French soldiers start dieing more and more and more every day. Not as many people will support that war any more. |
People dieing. I would define that as "HARM". Case closed.
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 6:03 PM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So you support the war in Iraq then. According to the above "criteria" it was fully justified as self defence, and now it's fully justified as peacekeeping. Here is a hint, they had bullshit back in the 1860's too. |
actually no it wasnt self defence or the UN would sanction it. As for peacekeeping... again nato or the UN or similar backs that up... which isnt happening really in iraq. Afghanistan yes it is.
I support the operation in afghanistan.
| Quote: | | Then so is dictatorship. You can't have it both ways. |
dictatorship is not 100% morally wrong.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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