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Zocrates
I rank, therefore I am
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 2224
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: Lawnside, NJ
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Creating one against one's will is a contradictory concept. It assumes that one could have a will before one existed. |
God could have asked my soul if it wanted to be strapped to a suffering meat-puppet and let me think it over... |
again, if we dont know the process, how can you assume that? |
There is no fucking process!!! |
I disagree....
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"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." - F.M. Knowles
"We only fear things in proportion to our ignorance of them" - Titus Livius
"Ain't nothin to it but to do it!" -Martin Payne |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Creating one against one's will is a contradictory concept. It assumes that one could have a will before one existed. |
God could have asked my soul if it wanted to be strapped to a suffering meat-puppet and let me think it over... |
again, if we dont know the process, how can you assume that? |
There is no fucking process!!! |
well, I dont know, I can't make that claim, I am going under your assumptions and claim that we were sent to this world by God without will of our own.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Zocrates wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Creating one against one's will is a contradictory concept. It assumes that one could have a will before one existed. |
God could have asked my soul if it wanted to be strapped to a suffering meat-puppet and let me think it over... |
again, if we dont know the process, how can you assume that? |
There is no fucking process!!! |
I disagree....
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LOL, I agree some are
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8376
Local time: 1:54 PM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Creating one against one's will is a contradictory concept. It assumes that one could have a will before one existed. |
God could have asked my soul if it wanted to be strapped to a suffering meat-puppet and let me think it over... |
again, if we dont know the process, how can you assume that? |
There is no fucking process!!! |
well, I dont know, I can't make that claim, I am going under your assumptions and claim that we were sent to this world by God without will of our own. |
Don't pin that shit on me, that is not my world view. I'm slamming your world view. You have to prove god gave us a choice to be born.
I'll be waiting.....
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Creating one against one's will is a contradictory concept. It assumes that one could have a will before one existed. |
God could have asked my soul if it wanted to be strapped to a suffering meat-puppet and let me think it over... |
again, if we dont know the process, how can you assume that? |
There is no fucking process!!! |
well, I dont know, I can't make that claim, I am going under your assumptions and claim that we were sent to this world by God without will of our own. |
Don't pin that shit on me, that is not my world view. I'm slamming your world view. You have to prove god gave us a choice to be born.
I'll be waiting..... |
? why ? I never claimed that....so your making sh... up and assuming things, and THEN I have to prove your assumptions....? 
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Creating one against one's will is a contradictory concept. It assumes that one could have a will before one existed. |
God could have asked my soul if it wanted to be strapped to a suffering meat-puppet and let me think it over... |
again, if we dont know the process, how can you assume that? |
There is no fucking process!!! |
well, I dont know, I can't make that claim, I am going under your assumptions and claim that we were sent to this world by God without will of our own. |
Don't pin that shit on me, that is not my world view. I'm slamming your world view. You have to prove god gave us a choice to be born.
I'll be waiting..... |
I answered you....are you waiting for the thread to go away?
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8376
Local time: 1:54 PM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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You stated there was a choice to be born.
YOU made a positive claim.
I'm waiting for your evidence for this.
I do NOT hold the world view there is a god. So anything you pin on me fails there.
I claim in YOUR world view that IF god exists and created us THAT violated our free will.
You claim ignorance to the PROCESS of being born and said how do we know we didn't have a choice.
Phil beat you down like a red headed step child.
SO either give us evidence we had a choice or conceed.
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Join http://www.sefora.org/
Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar.... |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6328
Local time: 5:54 AM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Assuming that one can always can do what one wants (which of course you can't... not always), one question still remains:
how much controll (if any) do we have over wanting what we want?
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~ Let us be reasonable ~
*You want to claim there's such a thing as the "supernatural"? Fine. I hereby declare that proposition "paracorrect".
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do, then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | You stated there was a choice to be born.
YOU made a positive claim.
I'm waiting for your evidence for this.
I do NOT hold the world view there is a god. So anything you pin on me fails there.
I claim in YOUR world view that IF god exists and created us THAT violated our free will.
You claim ignorance to the PROCESS of being born and said how do we know we didn't have a choice.
Phil beat you down like a red headed step child.
SO either give us evidence we had a choice or conceed. |
false and dishonest, never stated that, here is my quote verbatum:
"second.....how do you know we had no choice to be born?... I mean taking into consideration He exist, how do you know what process are in place for us to be born?
no statements, simply asking you a question based on YOUR assumption, and I might add always making clear I do not know, its huge assumption and claim of yours, not mine, never even implied that I think there is process, I merely asked "how do you know?"
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Last edited by Newman on Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Jutter wrote: | Assuming that one can always can do what one wants (which of course you can't... not always), one question still remains:
how much controll (if any) do we have over wanting what we want? |
very good question.....but to add to that, there is a difference in want and doing..follow me?
I can want something, but not have the means to either have it or to take it...
I can want to DO something and do it out of will...
let me know if my english made any sense
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notsaved
Forum Plebian
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 219
Local time: 2:54 PM
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: New Free will argument? |
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| Newman wrote: | | notsaved wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | I think I have an argument that I have not heard on the forum for free will. When I pull this one on the theists I know, they do not respond. I would like to see it batted around on the forum to see how well it works.
Yesterday the JWs came to my door again. They claimed we have free will. I said No we don’t and proceeded to argue the ol “An all powerful, all knowing being created us and knew what would happen before we were born yada yada to which he replied. “You didn’t have to open your door today, you chose to”. YEAH but your god supposedly KNEW I would do that before blah blah fuck me runnin.
Well, the way I see it is no one asked me to exist. My free will was violated be my being here.
The Christian god created us AGAIANST our free will FORCING us to exist for all eternity in either heaven or hell according to the most popular sects. No option of not existing at all. |
The next time they come to your door claiming free will is fact, just ask them if they can run a one minute mile. So much for free will eh ? |
? free will in no way shape or forms even implicates that you can be a super human...dont really follow your analogy |
I thought it was a pretty simple analogy. Free will is just an illusion. If you think you have it, then try running a mile in one minute. Get it ? The FW argument can be pretty tricky when you think about it. So what is free will anyway? Is it doing what you want to do? Or are there limitations as to what we as humans are capable of doing? since there are many limitations, then isn't free will just an illusion?
Last edited by notsaved on Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8376
Local time: 1:54 PM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | You stated there was a choice to be born.
YOU made a positive claim.
I'm waiting for your evidence for this.
I do NOT hold the world view there is a god. So anything you pin on me fails there.
I claim in YOUR world view that IF god exists and created us THAT violated our free will.
You claim ignorance to the PROCESS of being born and said how do we know we didn't have a choice.
Phil beat you down like a red headed step child.
SO either give us evidence we had a choice or conceed. |
false and dishonest, never stated that, here is my quote verbatum:
"second.....how do you know we had no choice to be born?... I mean taking into consideration He exist, how do you know what process are in place for us to be born?
no statements, simply asking you a question based on YOUR assumption, and I might add always making clear I do not know, its huge assumption and claim of yours, not mine, never even implied that I think there is process, I merely asked "how do you know?" |
Are you fucking kidding me? You think I would argue from a point of god existing? lol
I don't know we had no choice to be born. That is a totaly rediculous premise.
_________________
Join http://www.sefora.org/
Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar.... |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2007
Local time: 11:54 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: New Free will argument? |
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| baddogma wrote: | I think I have an argument that I have not heard on the forum for free will. When I pull this one on the theists I know, they do not respond. I would like to see it batted around on the forum to see how well it works.
Yesterday the JWs came to my door again. They claimed we have free will. I said No we don’t and proceeded to argue the ol “An all powerful, all knowing being created us and knew what would happen before we were born yada yada to which he replied. “You didn’t have to open your door today, you chose to”. YEAH but your god supposedly KNEW I would do that before blah blah fuck me runnin.
Well, the way I see it is no one asked me to exist. My free will was violated be my being here.
The Christian god created us AGAIANST our free will FORCING us to exist for all eternity in either heaven or hell according to the most popular sects. No option of not existing at all. |
please answer me... are all the statements in Bold, not assuming he was real?
*cough*
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