Matter- neither created nor destroyed

TrueEnergy

Hey, guys. As some of you may have noticed, I'm new here, and looking for some answers after discovering that religion gave me no real ones. But here's one of the few things that still screws with my logic, and theists by the millions use every day to convince people of their religion. Personally, it is one of the few reasons that I am agnostic rather than atheistic (well, I don't believe in a big guy in the sky, so I guess in that sense I am an atheist).

See, whenever I would question something in religion, I would get tossed this: "So you are saying that nothing exploded and created this perfectly ordered universe with laws and perfectly shaped celestial objects?" Actually, that's not what I was saying, but anyways...

I honestly don't see a way for us to know for certain how all matter came into being. Even with the Big Bang Theory, it only explains certain things, such as how the universe began, not why, or where it got its material from. Did matter simply always exist, and if so, why is it so much more impossible for some sort of higher energy to exist? (Here I am assuming that this so-called "higher power" or energy is outside our known universe, and therefore not subject to the physical laws of our universe... which of course leads to the unanswerable question of whether there is anything outside this universe, etc.)

Now, I will freely admit that although I am quite intelligent, I am not fluent in astronomy. I am hoping that there is someone here who help perhaps shed some light on this for me?

Saerules · Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject:

Our universe must be cyclic, else the law of the conversation of energy would have to be flawed, which would then lead to a universe of nothingness or oneness.

The big bang theory explains our universe only if the universe shrinks back to the bang-point. Otherwise it is a scrap-able theory. To understand how our universe came to be, one should be a physicist or mathematician... rather than astronomer.
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Philosophy is such a chore, that i've made it my work. -Saerules

TrueEnergy · Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject:

Understandable. But see why that leaves so much to be desired when looking for answers? I don't think we should jump to some bearded guy creating it... but I just don't see how that works, logically. We are in the physics department, so is there anyone here who can explain this?

Saerules · Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject:

Many theories could explain our universe.... though none i know of can perfectly explain the phenomenon.

Fact: the universe is expanding due to uncertain cause.
Fact: the universe must be cyclic, unless we are some sort of computer simulation, in which case our creators must exist in a cyclic universe.

I really am not the girl to ask, but here's a bump in case there is a resident nuclear physicist on the forums.
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Philosophy is such a chore, that i've made it my work. -Saerules

Philosophos · Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject:

Actually, the current big bang does explain quite a bit about how matter formed. See here for starters, but the more physically inclined members may have a better resource.
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aileron

TrueEnergy

Qutsemnie · Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject:

"it just seems to me that it would take more than a bunch of matter and a few natural laws to create all of this... "

Why... god or no god you cannot understand how it comes together. What makes you think you are in a position to judge whether or not it requires a deity? You attach "seems" like when we get to the bottom of the beginning it will be clear to you how it all works. I question whether that is even possible (though some atheist engage in it).

I think atheism should be based in unabashed humility. We should not judge whether this universe requires a deity to come into being. We should judge only that we have never experienced one, seen one, can't believe accounts of them, cannot find their influence in anything we observe, and know through history that humanity has invented many fictious gods.

But how can anyone sit back and wait for an explanation of how it all came into being they understand? I refute even the atheist that claim knowledge and comprehension of this event. It is hoccus pocus to try.

TrueEnergy · Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:19 pm Post subject:

I agree, friend, but I must try. I'm a philosopher at heart... and I just can't leave things alone and figure that it's beyond me. It is true that we will probably never have all of the answers... and every day, I understand the phrase "I know that I know nothing" more and more... I will always try, though. I guess before the light bulb was invented, it was folly to even think of such a thing. The world was not made by people content with what they know, even if it seemed foolish and futile to press on.

aileron

moog · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject:

"Matter- neither created nor destroyed"

This is not quite correct.
For example particle accelerators can create matter from the kinetic energy of the collision.

TrueEnergy · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject:

moog, I am aware of the exceptions, but for purposes of the above discussion, found it irrelevant... or rather, it would've been awkward to title this thread "Matter: Neither Created Nor Destroyed Except In Cases Of Particle Accelerators And Oh-So-Fun-Atomic-Bombs"... or something to that effect. Wink

Thanks, aileron, I will look into that further. Quite honestly, I did not know where to start before.

moog · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject:

Qutsemnie · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject:

josephpalazzo · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject:

If you're looking for a quick course in cosmology, here's a good place to start.

http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/vaasrev.pdf

Steinhardt is the leading cosmologist of today's crop.

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