Political/Government General Discussion : Libertarian Socialism

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Libertarian Socialism
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cheapsuprise
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

Except I don't turn a blind eye to the evils of Islamism. My problem with pr126's views is that they are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean.

Replace the word "Islam" with "capitalism" then look in the mirror... then shut the fuck up.
_________________
"-- Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than
feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to
be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it
is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be
dispensed with."-- Niccolò Machiavelli

Godless Red Scum
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:48 am Post subject:

cheapsuprise wrote:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

Except I don't turn a blind eye to the evils of Islamism. My problem with pr126's views is that they are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean.

Replace the word "Islam" with "capitalism" then look in the mirror... then shut the fuck up.

Demonstrate that my views on capitalism are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean, or you shut the fuck up, Einstein. I have written very little on the subject, so I don't see what basis you have to judge my views on the matter. Not that I should expect much from some asshole dropping nasty one-liners without exposition.

cheapsuprise
disgraced, in exile.

Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7113
Local time: 1:34 AM
Location: Next door.

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

cheapsuprise wrote:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

Except I don't turn a blind eye to the evils of Islamism. My problem with pr126's views is that they are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean.

Replace the word "Islam" with "capitalism" then look in the mirror... then shut the fuck up.

Demonstrate that my views on capitalism are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean, or you shut the fuck up, Einstein.

Your a communist. Case closed.

Quote:

I have written very little on the subject,

Which was more than enough.

Quote:

so I don't see what basis you have to judge my views on the matter. Not that I should expect much from some asshole

What does me being an asshole have to do with this?

Quote:

dropping nasty one-liners without exposition.

Your a communist. That's self expository... Unless, through some contradiction, you are a rare sort of communist, who is communistic without being paranoid, dogmatic, apocalyptic, or black and white about "capital", "capitalism", "economics" and other concepts that you have no understanding of, then take your place along side all those unfairly judged muslims. In short, if you don't want to be treated like a cookie cuter idiot, don't wrap yourself in the flag, then bitch when some one burns it.
_________________
"-- Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than
feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to
be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it
is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be
dispensed with."-- Niccolò Machiavelli

Godless Red Scum
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Joined: 16 Feb 2008
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:11 am Post subject:

cheapsuprise wrote:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

cheapsuprise wrote:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

Except I don't turn a blind eye to the evils of Islamism. My problem with pr126's views is that they are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean.

Replace the word "Islam" with "capitalism" then look in the mirror... then shut the fuck up.

Demonstrate that my views on capitalism are dogmatic, paranoid, apocalyptic, and Manichean, or you shut the fuck up, Einstein.

Your a communist. Case closed.

Quote:

I have written very little on the subject,

Which was more than enough.

Quote:

so I don't see what basis you have to judge my views on the matter. Not that I should expect much from some asshole

What does me being an asshole have to do with this?

Quote:

dropping nasty one-liners without exposition.

Just one little problem, Kepler...I'm not actually a Communist. I'm a "Red" in the sense that I'm a revolutionary (and libertarian) socialist, but if you've read any of my debates with Ivan here you'd know that I consider orthodox Marxism to be utopian shit. In fact, even under a socialist system I would favor some level of market competition.

So indeed it is you who needs to shut the fuck up, and the fact you would make such comments in complete ignorance of my political and economic analyses would explain what "you being an asshole" has to do with it.

cheapsuprise
disgraced, in exile.

Joined: 25 Apr 2004
Posts: 7113
Local time: 1:34 AM
Location: Next door.

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject:

Godless Red Scum wrote:

Just one little problem, Kepler...I'm not actually a Communist. I'm a "Red" in the sense that I'm a revolutionary (and libertarian) socialist,

So your a goofy contradiction, like "atheist theocrat". Not unusual for communists.

Quote:

but if you've read any of my debates with Ivan here you'd know that I consider orthodox Marxism to be utopian shit. In fact, even under a socialist system I would favor some level of market competition.

Which makes you much like any other lazey punk who likes to use political labels, but can't work out the ramifications of your own position. IE: you say your "libertarian", but use the word "some" to qualify a thing like market competition. You say your "socialist" but you reject drug prohibition. In other words, you mix two totally different, incompatible concepts of what authority other people do, and do not have the right to apply over your life. Your a libertarian if the liberties YOU want are protected, and a socialist if YOUR favorite causes are supported. You don't have the guts to except that being a libertarian means giving up power over other people, and you don't have the brains to realise that being socialist means giving up power over yourself. You want a mixture-- your particular mixture. Your no more revolutionary than some auto worker who will vote for which ever politician makes the most sincere sounding promises to protect manufacturing jobs.

Quote:

So indeed it is you who needs to shut the fuck up, and the fact you would make such comments in complete ignorance of my political and economic analyses

I've been reading your posts since you arrived.

Quote:

would explain what "you being an asshole" has to do with it.

Go have a good cry. If I catch you slamming some one from a double standard again, I'm gonna point it out.
_________________
"-- Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than
feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to
be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it
is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be
dispensed with."-- Niccolò Machiavelli

Godless Red Scum
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Joined: 16 Feb 2008
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:09 am Post subject:

cheapsuprise wrote:

IE: you say your "libertarian", but use the word "some" to qualify a thing like market competition.

That only makes sense if you regard "libertarian" strictly as an ideology, not a general adjective. When I mean to describe the ideology that roughly corresponds to that of the Libertarian Party, I capitalize the L. I believe in a non-authoritarian form of socialism, if that clarfies matters.

Quote:

You say your "socialist" but you reject drug prohibition.

Yeah, so? Just because YOU think being a socialist means being some Leninist who wants to regulate an individual's personal choices, doesn't mean I have to fit into your narrow ideoligical box drawn by dichotomous thinking.

Quote:

In other words, you mix two totally different, incompatible concepts of what authority other people do, and do not have the right to apply over your life. Your a libertarian if the liberties YOU want are protected, and a socialist if YOUR favorite causes are supported. You don't have the guts to except that being a libertarian means giving up power over other people, and you don't have the brains to realise that being socialist means giving up power over yourself. You want a mixture-- your particular mixture. Your no more revolutionary than some auto worker who will vote for which ever politician makes the most sincere sounding promises to protect manufacturing jobs.

See above.

Quote:

I've been reading your posts since you arrived.

Pity you are incapable of comprehending them then. "Grrrr. Socialism BAD! Take away freedom! Mao! Stalin! Free-market capitalism or authoritarian communism only two choices! Cheapsurprise smash!"

Quote:

Go have a good cry. If I catch you slamming some one from a double standard again, I'm gonna point it out.

Yes, I'm sure I'll lose sleep over it.

Moloth
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:23 am Post subject:

what the hell is a Libertarian Socialist? "we want the smallest government possible... but one that gives us everything we need" er.. O_o _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=- www.Moloth.com www.twitter.com/Moloth www.MySpace.com/Moloth www.last.fm/user/moloth Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

gnosis
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:27 am Post subject:

Libertarian Socialism is the awesome. I think the cold war has skewed a lot of people's views into believing communism and socialism are the same thing, but they are not... Libertarian socialists believe that until one has equal social standing and education, one can never truly have liberty or freedom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

Moloth
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:43 am Post subject:

gnosis wrote:

Libertarian Socialism is the awesome. I think the cold war has skewed a lot of people's views into believing communism and socialism are the same thing, but they are not...
Libertarian socialists believe that until one has equal social standing and education, one can never truly have liberty or freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

wow. what a horribly flawed and ignorant philosophy. It has the SAME flaw as Communism: people are NOT 'equal'. some people are smarter and work harder than others. this effort should be rewarded.

Everyone should have the same rights of liberty, justice and freedom.

However, this does NOT mean that all people are equal in potential or capacity. People will ALWAYS have "social standing and education". some people will simply put more effort into those things than others. there is no cure for the human condition...
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

gnosis
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:49 am Post subject:

Moloth wrote:

gnosis wrote:

The Declaration of Independence (July 4th, 1776) says:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

You're right, we're not talking about equality of intellect or physical power. We're talking about equality in the eyes of the law, human rights.

Thing is, libertarian socialists believe that the government is a violent coercive institution by its nature, and should be abolished and replaced with the will of the people. I think that this would never have worked in the past, but as we move forward as a race technologically and socially it may be possible someday in the future. Someday free, equal access to tools of information and production will be a function of technology unless it is limited by the government itself as a means of consolidating and controlling power. Power that is a function of the people of that nation. Communist governments are by nature repressive, even more repressive than Capitalist "Free Market" governments. Therefore they are the polar opposite of libertarian socialism, on the socialist scale. Communist governments are the absolute worst about controlling and repressing information and access to personal production.

Libertarian socialism is the most "center" form of socialism, in a way.

Last edited by gnosis on Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:03 pm; edited 5 times in total

Moloth
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

Well, someone said "equal social standing and education"... and threw me off. what you described sounded more like straight up Libertarianism... what does Socialism have to do with it? _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=- www.Moloth.com www.twitter.com/Moloth www.MySpace.com/Moloth www.last.fm/user/moloth Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

Ivan_Ivanov
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

gnosis wrote:

We're not talking about equality of intellect or physical power. We're talking about equality in the eyes of the law, human rights.

Then what does this have to do with social standing and education?
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BarkAtTheMoon
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:

gnosis wrote:

Moloth wrote:

gnosis wrote:

Quote:

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions and private property, in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole.

So you eliminate the government...then you take away everyone's shit? I think that's the flaw Moloth was referring to above that was the same flaw Communist states had. Without private property there's no reward for excellence, which just breeds mediocrity. That's definitely not what the Declaration of Independence was about. The Declaration and much of the early thinking was just plain old libertarian. There was never any attempt to abolish private property.

Quote:

Peter Gibbons: The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.
Bob Porter: Don't... don't care?
Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime; so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now.
Bob Slydell: I beg your pardon?
Peter Gibbons: Eight bosses.
Bob Slydell: Eight?
Peter Gibbons: Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

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gnosis
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject:

BarkAtTheMoon wrote:

gnosis wrote:

Moloth wrote:

gnosis wrote:

Quote:

No, you don't take away everyone's shit. You give them all the power to produce their own shit whether they choose to or not, they are at liberty to decide.

Ivan_Ivanov
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject:

BarkAtTheMoon wrote:

Quote:

That AND how are you going to take everyone's shit away if you abolish authoritarian institutions?

gnosis wrote:

No, you don't take away everyone's shit. You give them all the power to produce their own shit whether they choose to or not, they are at liberty to decide.

So what was that bit on abolishing private property all about?
_________________

It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea.

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