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gnosis
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Preventing someone from infringing upon those rights (or doing something about it when it happens) is the province of that person and any police agencies involved. |
No offense but this may be somewhat of an oversimplification of the issue, especially when it comes to coordinated attempts by multiple individuals to deprive one (or many) of liberty. It is not always possible to defend your own liberty by yourself without cooperation with others, police or otherwise. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Preventing someone from infringing upon those rights (or doing something about it when it happens) is the province of that person and any police agencies involved. |
| gnosis wrote: | | This may be an oversimplification of the issue, especially when it comes to coordinated attempts by multiple individuals to deprive one (or many) of liberty. Not always possible to defend your own liberty without cooperation with others, police or otherwise. |
And?
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aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
And? |
And so therefore some sort of system of cooperation must be put into place to defend individual liberty, governmental or otherwise. |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | And so therefore some sort of system of cooperation must be put into place to defend individual liberty, governmental or otherwise. |
"If every person has the right to defend even by force — his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right — its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force — for the same reason — cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups."
Bastiat |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | And? |
| gnosis wrote: | | And so therefore some sort of system of cooperation must be put into place to defend individual liberty, governmental or otherwise. |
I think we humans tend to cooperate rather well.
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aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
I think we humans tend to cooperate rather well. |
Cooperation for the benefit of the many!? Oh shit sounds like socialism to me!! JK JK!  Sort of.. seriously though, isn't that what "society" is after all? Or "community"? |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, and it's voluntary. The problem about "libertarian socialism" is that it attempts to evade the fact that socialism is inherently about initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society", which goes against the rights of the individual.
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aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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mispost.
Last edited by gnosis on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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What about them? I need a little more so that I can properly answer.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society", which goes against the rights of the individual. |
The question I am posing is whether initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society" is always wrong, if indeed that goal is to protect the rights of the individual. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society", which goes against the rights of the individual. |
| gnosis wrote: | | The question I am posing is whether initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society" is always wrong, if indeed that goal is to protect the rights of the individual. |
That's like saying you had to destroy the village in order to save it. You can't protect the rights of the individual by intitiating force against the individual. That's doing the very thing which is sought to eliminate.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
That's like saying you had to destroy the village in order to save it. You can't protect the rights of the individual by intitiating force against the individual. That's doing the very thing which is sought to eliminate. |
Good point. Can't debate that one. |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Yes, and it's voluntary. The problem about "libertarian socialism" is that it attempts to evade the fact that socialism is inherently about initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society", which goes against the rights of the individual. |
What about initiating force against others in order to accomplish the goals of the individual? I would say that is what unrestrained capitalism ends up being, just a different end of the spectrum. If one individual has too much power, economically or otherwise, it will inevitably be used to usurp the rights of another at some point. As the old adage goes: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Yes, and it's voluntary. The problem about "libertarian socialism" is that it attempts to evade the fact that socialism is inherently about initiating force against others in order to accomplish the "goals of society", which goes against the rights of the individual. |
| gnosis wrote: | | What about initiating force against others in order to accomplish the goals of the individual? |
That's immoral.
| gnosis wrote: | | I would say that is what unrestrained capitalism ends up being, just a different end of the spectrum. |
I would say that we have individuals initiating force against other individuals NOW, and we don't have "unrestrainted capitalism". So you'll have to do better.
| gnosis wrote: | | If one individual has too much power, economically or otherwise, it will inevitably be used to usurp the rights of another at some point. |
You, like most people, confuse economic "power" with political "power". One is the use of trade; the other is the use of the weapon. I'll let you figure out which is which.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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gnosis
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
You, like most people, confuse economic "power" with political "power". One is the use of trade; the other is the use of the weapon. I'll let you figure out which is which. |
I think you are making the mistake of believing there is a difference. Economic power is political power, at least under the current system. |
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