| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | But it necessarily does. Socialism is incompatible with any bit of individual liberty. It's like trying to make a square circle--can't be done. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Doesn't one have the liberty to be a socialist even by libertarian standards? Just not the right to force anyone else into a socialist system, correct? |
Yes and yes.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RyanDzundza wrote: | | couldnt a person have socialist views on a certain aspect of life but then a liveral in other aspects |
If one desires philosophical schizophrenia, sure.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | But it necessarily does. Socialism is incompatible with any bit of individual liberty. It's like trying to make a square circle--can't be done. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Doesn't one have the liberty to be a socialist even by libertarian standards? Just not the right to force anyone else into a socialist system, correct? |
Yes and yes. |
Liberty first, socialism second. That's why it's "libertarian socialism", not "socialist libertarianism". Completely voluntary participation in a socialist system with no coercion, no expropriation. Only giving up your property to the democratic will of the community if you so choose, with the right to decline to do so. Basically democratically controlled charity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | But it necessarily does. Socialism is incompatible with any bit of individual liberty. It's like trying to make a square circle--can't be done. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Doesn't one have the liberty to be a socialist even by libertarian standards? Just not the right to force anyone else into a socialist system, correct? |
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Yes and yes. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Liberty first, socialism second. |
That's like "circle first, square second". It's not possible.
| gnosis wrote: | | That's why it's "libertarian socialism", not "socialist libertarianism". Completely voluntary participation in a socialist system with no coercion, no expropriation. |
Not possible. Socialism relies on coercion and expropriation.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Not possible. Socialism relies on coercion and expropriation. |
Not libertarian socialism, that's the point. It's socialism that relies on strictly voluntary participation instead. Libertarian socialism turns the concept of coercion and expropriation on its head. The standard concept of class struggle socialism is that in order to regain power, the workers must "coerce and expropriate" factory owners in order to regain power. In all reality, it is the workers who are being coerced and expropriated. They are coerced to participate in a system in which they do not receive proper compensation for their labor, and do not have the right to stop working. Libertarian socialism maintains that if the workers exercise true liberty, they will be able to refuse to participate in such a system, which would not be expropriating the owners, but actually stopping their own expropriation through the personal choice not to participate.
GRS was basically hitting on the concept with the Taft-Hartley act, which allows striking workers to be forced to return to work, basically at gunpoint. I would call that expropriation and coercion if anything is. Part of the concept is that your labor is also your property, and you should not be forced to give it to anyone.
Last edited by gnosis on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Not possible. Socialism relies on coercion and expropriation. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Not libertarian socialism, that's the point. |
The point is that there's no such thing as libertarian socialism, just like there's no such thing as a square circle. It's not possible.
| gnosis wrote: | | It's socialism that relies on strictly voluntary participation instead. |
Then it can't be socialism.
| gnosis wrote: | | Why is it that you feel socialism must rely on coercion and expropriation? |
That's what makes socialism--socialism. It is the essence of socialism. Socialism relies on "society" (in some manner) saying what is to be produced, how much, where it will be distributed, etc. Necessarily this relies on coercion and expropriation because the decisions won't always be followed. There can be no individual liberty when "society" has made you simply part of the machine.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Please see my above post, I have edited it. Sorry for the edits, I know Ivan is going to have my head for this! 
_________________
"Agnostics: Atheists without balls." -Stephen Colbert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Your edits don't actually do anything, though. It's like calling an orange a kiwi. Saying that the workers can stop their own expropriation means that they are eliminating socialism. So it just doesn't work.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Your edits don't actually do anything, though. It's like calling an orange a kiwi. Saying that the workers can stop their own expropriation means that they are eliminating socialism. So it just doesn't work. |
So you are saying that the current system of exploitation of the working class is "socialism"? Isn't the whole point of socialism ending the exploitation of the working class? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Your edits don't actually do anything, though. It's like calling an orange a kiwi. Saying that the workers can stop their own expropriation means that they are eliminating socialism. So it just doesn't work. |
| gnosis wrote: | | So you are saying that the current system of exploitation of the working class is "socialism"? |
Welfare-state socialism and fascism. And the ones so exploiting are the government agents and those in business who use the government to do it.
| gnosis wrote: | | Isn't the whole point of socialism ending the exploitation of the working class? |
You'd think that, but then also the whole point of government is to protect the citizens, and we see how well that's living up to the hype.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
| gnosis wrote: | | Isn't the whole point of socialism ending the exploitation of the working class? |
You'd think that, but then also the whole point of government is to protect the citizens, and we see how well that's living up to the hype. |
I think you are saying the concept of socialism is the same thing as its attempted implementation through a communist state. I personally would disagree with that, but that's just my opinion. It seems to me that communist states actually end up doing the exact opposite of what is intended by socialist concepts, which is even more repression and exploitation. Basically the same thing you are saying about government. That's what a communist state is after all though isn't it? Just a different type of government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Actually I would agree that libertarian socialism is somewhat of a misnomer, just a label put on the concept by those who are against personal liberty because it involves empowerment of the working class, which is often typified as "socialism". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gnosis wrote: | | Isn't the whole point of socialism ending the exploitation of the working class? |
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | You'd think that, but then also the whole point of government is to protect the citizens, and we see how well that's living up to the hype. |
| gnosis wrote: | | I think you are saying the concept of socialism is the same thing as its attempted implementation through a communist state. |
Or fascist, which is just dishonest communism.
| gnosis wrote: | | I personally would disagree with that, but that's just my opinion. It seems to me that communist states actually end up doing the exact opposite of what is intended by socialist concepts, which is even more repression and exploitation. |
Odd how that happens. You wouldn't think that by ignoring all the laws of economics and ignoring individual rights that you'd have any problems at all. But, such is what socialism/communism does.
| gnosis wrote: | | Basically the same thing you are saying about government. That's what a communist state is after all though isn't it? Just a different type of government. |
Can't polish a turd. You can try, but you'll just end up with shit all over you.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Master
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2373
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: |
Can't polish a turd. You can try, but you'll just end up with shit all over you. |
So basically we agree on one concept, government is mostly shit. The question is where we actually disagree... I also agree that individual liberty should come first. The question I think is defining "liberty", and how it would be possible to prevent one man from usurping the rights of another. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Knight_of_BAAWA
Jedi Slackmaster
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 10021
Local time: 6:48 PM
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Liberty is (nutshell) simply being able to do those things which you have the right to do and are so metaphysically capable of doing relative to one's own abilities (e.g. a paralyzed person has the right to walk around, but is incapable of doing so).
Preventing someone from infringing upon those rights (or doing something about it when it happens) is the province of that person and any police agencies involved.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
