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Gettin' In Tune
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Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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 Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | The problem with a more capitalistic approach to libertarianism however is often those who gain access to higher levels of power will use it to repress information and access, which is against the libertarian concept. Libertarian socialism is supposed to be about fighting oppression. |
Asymmetric Information may occur in a capitalistic economy. There are ways to mitigate it; signaling, screening, and keeping the internet from regulation. |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Try this one: I'm not a libertarian. I'm a capitalist.
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | Try this one: I'm not a libertarian. I'm a capitalist. |
You've actually heard someone say anything like that?
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It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm trying really hard to NOT derail this thread by coming up with a bunch of funny "I'm not XXX. I'm YYY." lines...
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth has scruples?!? I'm flabergasted... |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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did ya'll hear something?
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | Libertarian Socialism is the awesome. I think the cold war has skewed a lot of people's views into believing communism and socialism are the same thing, but they are not...
Libertarian socialists believe that until one has equal social standing and education, one can never truly have liberty or freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism |
wow. what a horribly flawed and ignorant philosophy. It has the SAME flaw as Communism: people are NOT 'equal'. some people are smarter and work harder than others. this effort should be rewarded.
Everyone should have the same rights of liberty, justice and freedom.
However, this does NOT mean that all people are equal in potential or capacity. People will ALWAYS have "social standing and education". some people will simply put more effort into those things than others. there is no cure for the human condition... |
Some forms of libertarian socialism do indeed account for this. Whereas anarchist communism follows the Marxian maxim of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs", other forms of left anarchism or libertarian socialism (such as anarchist collectivism and anarcho-syndicalism) believe each worker is only entitled to an equal share of what they produce. For example, I work at a factory and I put in 10 hours of work creating 1000 widgets-- I would receive remuneration equal to the entire value of the widgets, less overhead and other costs. But if I only put in 5 hours and produce fewer widgets, my remuneration is less b/c I have produced less. It works about the same with mutualist anarchism, except that a competitive marketplace exists within which worker and consumer coops freely trade with each other-- thus democratizing private enterprise and reducing capital conglomeration. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | | No, you don't take away everyone's shit. You give them all the power to produce their own shit whether they choose to or not, they are at liberty to decide. |
So what was that bit on abolishing private property all about? |
It might be helpful to clarify that libertarian socialism is not one ideology but rather a more general rubric under which many different ideologies may be classified. Within this umbrella term exist ideologies with widely varying opinions on private property. For example, Mutualism could be viewed almost as a form of "market socialism" or even a democratic and decentralized form of capitalism-- it's basically a free marketplace of worker and consumer co-ops. Most socialists, however, whether libertarian or authoritarian, do make a distinction between "private property" and "personal property". Personal property would be your car, your house, your PS3, your personal checking account, etc. Private property would be private ownership of the means of production. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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okay... i need a drink. >_<
politics is like music... there are as many particulars and genres as the imagination can come up with...
free-style jazz, nerdcore, rockabilly...
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www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | | Did you mean: "How are you NOT going to take everyone's shit away?" |
So if you're not going to use authoritarian institutions to enforce equality, if you're not going to take away people's property... how is any of what you said any different from just plain libertarianism? |
The economic superstructure, employment and property relations would be the "socialist" part. All forms of socialism ultimately seek an economic system which is designed to limit large conglomerations of capital (and thus power), democratizes the workplace, and limits large disparities of wealth and power.
I'm I guess what you would call a "practical" libertarian socialist. I don't think wealth or power disparties can be wholly eliminated. However, I do envision a system (somewhere between mutualism and anarchosyndicalism) where the economic, social and political superstructure organically reduces wealth and power disparities. You can't artificially force equal material conditions for each individual. You can, however, have a system which provides truly equal opportunities and reduces large material inequalities, thus equalizing power which, in turn, maximizes freedom. I could get into a complicated description of what this kind of system would look like if anyone is so inclined to hear it, but the bottom line is I can envision a society where your next-door neighbor might have a nicer car because he works harder or smarter, but you wouldn't have guys like Warren Buffett living like kings while others are living in tenements and shacks. I know that some people would argue that a truly free-market system would actually reduce such glaring disparities of wealth and power, but I just don't buy it-- in capitalism ever increasing capital conglomeration and disparties of wealth are not just an inevitable result, but the engine of the system itself.
I can also see a future where people have more power over their own labor and are not forced to submit daily to the arbitrary authority of owners/management just to meet their basic needs. Although modern capitalism is a big improvement on what came before, I don't think it is the best possible economic system for maximizing freedom. I don't believe huge disparities of wealth and power are inevitable, and I don't believe late-stage capitalism is the end of economic and social development. I believe eventually a economic and social superstructure will develop which is not perfect but superior to capitalism/liberal democracy. Not a utopia, but simply a freer, more humane, more democratic system than the one we have now. |
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Godless Red Scum
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | okay... i need a drink. >_<
politics is like music... there are as many particulars and genres as the imagination can come up with...
free-style jazz, nerdcore, rockabilly... |
Indeed...on both topics. As to the first...time to get away from this desk and make that happen. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Libertarian Socialism is the awesome. I think the cold war has skewed a lot of people's views into believing communism and socialism are the same thing, |
Then why did Marx and Engels use communism and socialism interchangeably?
And libertarian socialists can believe whatever they want about social standing and education: they're simply wrong.
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gnosis
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | | Libertarian Socialism is the awesome. I think the cold war has skewed a lot of people's views into believing communism and socialism are the same thing, |
Then why did Marx and Engels use communism and socialism interchangeably?
And libertarian socialists can believe whatever they want about social standing and education: they're simply wrong. |
Marx and Engels are not the end all of politics and philosophy. There continue to be new people, with new ideas.
So what, you think poor people SHOULDN'T be educated? |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Godless Red Scum wrote: | | The economic superstructure, employment and property relations would be the "socialist" part. All forms of socialism ultimately seek an economic system which is designed to limit large conglomerations of capital (and thus power), democratizes the workplace, and limits large disparities of wealth and power. |
Socialism hides behind the mask of equality. At the heart of socialism is violence and coercion. Socialists take the wealth from a hard working and skilled individual and give it to someone else who does not deserve it.
| Quote: | | I'm I guess what you would call a "practical" libertarian socialist. |
A libertarian socialist is an oxymoron. A libertarian values the individual, while socialism values the collective.
| Quote: | | I can envision a society where your next-door neighbor might have a nicer car because he works harder or smarter, but you wouldn't have guys like Warren Buffett living like kings while others are living in tenements and shacks. I know that some people would argue that a truly free-market system would actually reduce such glaring disparities of wealth and power, but I just don't buy it-- in capitalism ever increasing capital conglomeration and disparties of wealth are not just an inevitable result, but the engine of the system itself. |
Economic disparities are not necessary a bad thing. Disparities spring up via hard work and natural skill. If people are living in shacks in this country, then I lay the blame on them more than I would capitalism. The US is not a perfectly free market, but people can put themselves ahead via hard work, skill, and the occasional luck.
One would be taking away the incentive to create new technology by forcing economic equality. The US has historically been the bedrock for modern innovation and technological advancements. I would argue that this was built off our libertarian ethics that founded this country. The same thing happened to the Dutch in the 17th century. Compared to their European counterparts, the Dutch promoted individual liberty and was a fermenting pot of new intellectual ideas and economic growth.
Taking away people's voluntary agreement is restricting. Labor Unions are coercive in nature. Labor unions form a barrier to entry to employ your labor. Labor unions create unemployment and also distort the market price. Worker collectives on the hand are slightly different. People have the right to form into voluntary collectives and own a business. When these collectives are founded on voluntary agreements, usually fare well.
| Quote: | | I can also see a future where people have more power over their own labor and are not forced to submit daily to the arbitrary authority of owners/management just to meet their basic needs. |
You are being ideal and painting a one-sided picture. People should not have to forced to submit daily to authority. That is called slavery.
| Quote: | | Although modern capitalism is a big improvement on what came before, I don't think it is the best possible economic system for maximizing freedom. I don't believe huge disparities of wealth and power are inevitable, and I don't believe late-stage capitalism is the end of economic and social development. I believe eventually a economic and social superstructure will develop which is not perfect but superior to capitalism/liberal democracy. Not a utopia, but simply a freer, more humane, more democratic system than the one we have now. |
We all want a freer society, but the means differ. I see freedom in market forces and voluntary transaction, while you do not. If you want to argue the means rather than painting a beautiful and illusionary picture of "libertarian socialism", then I will spar with you. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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Joined: 08 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Libertarian Socialism is the awesome. I think the cold war has skewed a lot of people's views into believing communism and socialism are the same thing, |
| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | Then why did Marx and Engels use communism and socialism interchangeably?
And libertarian socialists can believe whatever they want about social standing and education: they're simply wrong. |
| gnosis wrote: | | Marx and Engels are not the end all of politics and philosophy. |
So what? Clearly, since Marx and Engels pre-date the cold war and used socialism and communism interchangeably: you're wrong.
| gnosis wrote: | | So what, you think poor people SHOULDN'T be educated? |
Are you stupid, or do you just intend to make the biggest fucking fool of yourself that you can? Because only the dumbest fucking asshole or the world's biggest fucking liar would think that I implied anything like that.
Next time: don't be a fucking asshole. Education is NOT a right. It's a service. Not being educated doesn't mean you're not free. Only someone playing with the definitions of words would think otherwise.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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