| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
gnosis
Forum Leader
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 1684
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: California
|
 Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | Quote: | | This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions and private property, in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole. |
So you eliminate the government...then you take away everyone's shit? I think that's the flaw Moloth was referring to above that was the same flaw Communist states had. Without private property there's no reward for excellence, which just breeds mediocrity. |
That AND how are you going to take everyone's shit away if you abolish authoritarian institutions? |
Did you mean: "How are you NOT going to take everyone's shit away?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
Ivan_Ivanov
Administrator
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 3620
Local time: 2:33 AM
Location: Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gnosis wrote: | | Did you mean: "How are you NOT going to take everyone's shit away?" |
So if you're not going to use authoritarian institutions to enforce equality, if you're not going to take away people's property... how is any of what you said any different from just plain libertarianism?
_________________
It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea.
The LOVE SHACK. Friendly, civil, heavily moderated... coming to a forum near you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 20923
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | | Did you mean: "How are you NOT going to take everyone's shit away?" |
So if you're not going to use authoritarian institutions to enforce equality, if you're not going to take away people's property... how is any of what you said any different from just plain libertarianism? |
exactly.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
www.twitter.com/Moloth
www.MySpace.com/Moloth
www.last.fm/user/moloth
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Leader
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 1684
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ivan_Ivanov wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | | Did you mean: "How are you NOT going to take everyone's shit away?" |
So if you're not going to use authoritarian institutions to enforce equality, if you're not going to take away people's property... how is any of what you said any different from just plain libertarianism? |
Yeah well, it's a little bit of a grey area sometimes. Some people identify libertarian socialism with communism but I really don't see it that way. I am mostly for freedom of information and access, which focuses more on the "libertarian" than the "socialist" part. The problem with a more capitalistic approach to libertarianism however is often those who gain access to higher levels of power will use it to repress information and access, which is against the libertarian concept. Libertarian socialism is supposed to be about fighting oppression. We all know communist governments are some of the most oppressive on the planet, so communism cannot be a function of libertarian socialism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7323
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: D-brane
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Only on AF a thread entitled, UK Police to learn Quran and sharia, can become a battleground on Libertarianism...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ivan_Ivanov
Administrator
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 3620
Local time: 2:33 AM
Location: Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gnosis wrote: | | The problem with a more capitalistic approach to libertarianism however is often those who gain access to higher levels of power will use it to repress information and access, which is against the libertarian concept. |
Even assuming they are capable of doing so, you have only two ways of addressing the problem:
1) Use authoritarian institutions to force them to share the information, or take their shit away so they're no longer capable of repressing information.
2) Leave them be.
If you pick 1) you're no longer libertarian, if you pick 2) you're libertarian but chances are you no longer consider yourself a libertarian socialist.
_________________
It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea.
The LOVE SHACK. Friendly, civil, heavily moderated... coming to a forum near you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 20923
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Only on AF a thread entitled, UK Police to learn Quran and sharia, can become a battleground on Libertarianism... |
and only you would complain about it...
this thing is almost 20 pages long. conversations are organic and flow.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
www.twitter.com/Moloth
www.MySpace.com/Moloth
www.last.fm/user/moloth
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7323
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: D-brane
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Moloth wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Only on AF a thread entitled, UK Police to learn Quran and sharia, can become a battleground on Libertarianism... |
and only you would complain about it...
this thing is almost 20 pages long. conversations are organic and flow. |
If people are interested in debating Libertarianism, I have no problem. A mod (like Ivan who is fucking sleeping at the wheel) could easily split the thread... This is not rocket science... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Leader
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 1684
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LOL... np I'll make a new thread.. woops nevermind, thanks Ivan.
Last edited by gnosis on Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ivan_Ivanov
Administrator
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 3620
Local time: 2:33 AM
Location: Poland
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Done.
If I missed any post just whistle.
_________________
It is as though your species' brain is too small to hold a simple thought such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea.
The LOVE SHACK. Friendly, civil, heavily moderated... coming to a forum near you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BarkAtTheMoon
DILLIGAF
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4276
Local time: 8:33 PM
Location: Wilmington, DE
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gnosis wrote: |
No, you don't take away everyone's shit. You give them all the power to produce their own shit whether they choose to or not, they are at liberty to decide. |
Your link said abolish private property. That's taking away everyone's shit, giving everyone a relatively equal and for a lot of people, a lesser amount of shit that they don't actually get to own. Which as others mentioned isn't going to happen without the authoritarian institutions you're trying to abolish, because people don't like having their shit taken away.
From what you said to Ivan I don't get where the socialism part is in your idea of libertarian socialism. Without the above abolishment of private property, it's just libertarian. Socialism and libertarian minimal government are kind of contradictory.
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Leader
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 1684
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | | gnosis wrote: |
No, you don't take away everyone's shit. You give them all the power to produce their own shit whether they choose to or not, they are at liberty to decide. |
Your link said abolish private property. That's taking away everyone's shit, giving everyone a relatively equal and for a lot of people, a lesser amount of shit that they don't actually get to own. Which as others mentioned isn't going to happen without the authoritarian institutions you're trying to abolish, because people don't like having their shit taken away.
From what you said to Ivan I don't get where the socialism part is in your idea of libertarian socialism. Without the above abolishment of private property, it's just libertarian. Socialism and libertarian minimal government are kind of contradictory. |
Well, first you have to define "private property", which most libertarian socialists link with land ownership, not private possessions.
I personally agree there is a problem with the concept of land ownership. Humanity owns the planet as a collective, not individuals owning patches of land in my opinion. Pollution of the planet in case: Is it OK to pour automotive oil out in your yard? No. Why not? Because of collective ownership. Land ownership is also at the center of the Palestinian vs Israeli conflict: Who owns the land? To me, it doesn't matter. The collective ownership of this planet overrides their contest over that patch of land, if that conflict threatens to spread to worldwide warfare. Then ALL of our shit will be in serious trouble... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 2032
Local time: 4:33 PM
Location: Northern LA County, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There must be something really wrong with the collectivist ideologies that they must come up with so many different labels. The only major difference on the capitalist small government side is that some of us are minarchists while some of us are anarchists. Even objectivists have stopped rejecting the label of libertarian.
On the other hand, I've been told the following:
"I'm not a socialist, I'm a communist."
"I'm not a communist, I'm a socialist."
"I'm not a communist, I'm a marxist."
"I'm not a marxist, I'm an anarchist."
"I'm not a socialist, I'm a marxist."
"I'm not an anarchist, I'm a marxist."
_________________
Nos laetus edo qui votum opprimo nobis.
LakeGeorgeMan actually think's I'm Socrates.
Visit my wife's art gallery |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gnosis
Forum Leader
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 1684
Local time: 7:33 PM
Location: California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | There must be something really wrong with the collectivist ideologies that they must come up with so many different labels. The only major difference on the capitalist small government side is that some of us are minarchists while some of us are anarchists. Even objectivists have stopped rejecting the label of libertarian.
On the other hand, I've been told the following:
"I'm not a socialist, I'm a communist."
"I'm not a communist, I'm a socialist."
"I'm not a communist, I'm a marxist."
"I'm not a marxist, I'm an anarchist."
"I'm not a socialist, I'm a marxist."
"I'm not an anarchist, I'm a marxist." |
Ah, thanks for the insight and clarification. I am definitely more of a minarchist leaning than an anarchist leaning. So many different classifications... Why does one have to call themselves a "Marxist" if they agree with just SOME of Marx's views? Such as "Religion is the opiate of the masses". People sometimes need religion, just like sometimes they may need an opiate if they're in pain.  For some people religion can be a very positive thing. It's only the people who attempt to use it to impose their will on others who are the problem... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 2032
Local time: 4:33 PM
Location: Northern LA County, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I did not come up with those many labels. Each of those came from a self-identifier. The second half of each statement came from a self-identifier.
_________________
Nos laetus edo qui votum opprimo nobis.
LakeGeorgeMan actually think's I'm Socrates.
Visit my wife's art gallery |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Live Video and Chat Room
Freethought Videos
FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Register
