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Tormentor
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 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: Lenin: Imperialism is an advanced stage of Capitalism |
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Is this not true?
This is the definition of imperialism: Imperialism is the forceful extension of a nation's authority by territorial gain or by the establishment of economic and/or political dominance over other nations.
*cough cough* Iraq.
Look, here comes iran down the pike...
What next? |
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lumpymunk
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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...except it's not because of capitalism.
...and it's no longer capitalism when it transforms into Imperialism (usually via. communism/fascism).
Except that Iraq is not a consequences of an "advanced form of capitalism."
scapegoating again....
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LOLatChristians
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Well, you could argue that Iraq was a cause of capitalism because of the Bush administration's ties to Halliburton, which was awarded no-bid contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq. When you combine that with the statements Cheney made throughout the 1990's about Iraq being a quagmire and all, the obvious spin-job they pulled with linking Hussein to 9/11, with planting phantom WMD's, with the Bush administration's ties to the oil industry, etc.
If the U.S. had a socialist economy, that would have never happened (not that that justifies socialism). |
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redraiderdude187
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| LOLatChristians wrote: | Well, you could argue that Iraq was a cause of capitalism because of the Bush administration's ties to Halliburton, which was awarded no-bid contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq. When you combine that with the statements Cheney made throughout the 1990's about Iraq being a quagmire and all, the obvious spin-job they pulled with linking Hussein to 9/11, with planting phantom WMD's, with the Bush administration's ties to the oil industry, etc.
If the U.S. had a socialist economy, that would have never happened (not that that justifies socialism). |
No bid contracts are NOT capitalism. Capitalism is all about competition, and if one wanted to delve into true capitalism, then the government wouldn't have been contracting anyone out in the first place. People always attempt to villify capitalism with situations like this, yet happenings such as this are pure corruption, not capitalism.
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LOLatChristians
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| redraiderdude187 wrote: | | No bid contracts are NOT capitalism. Capitalism is all about competition, and if one wanted to delve into true capitalism, then the government wouldn't have been contracting anyone out in the first place. People always attempt to villify capitalism with situations like this, yet happenings such as this are pure corruption, not capitalism. |
Good point.
However, the fact that corruption did occur is a byproduct of capitalism, no?
Would our politicians be bought by lobbyists if we had a socialist economy (everyone's essentially equal) for instance? |
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Tormentor
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| LOLatChristians wrote: | | redraiderdude187 wrote: | | No bid contracts are NOT capitalism. Capitalism is all about competition, and if one wanted to delve into true capitalism, then the government wouldn't have been contracting anyone out in the first place. People always attempt to villify capitalism with situations like this, yet happenings such as this are pure corruption, not capitalism. |
Good point.
However, the fact that corruption did occur is a byproduct of capitalism, no?
Would our politicians be bought by lobbyists if we had a socialist economy (everyone's essentially equal) for instance? |
Also, I'd like to mention that iraq had NOTHING to do with Afghanistan or September 11th, or ANYTHING at all that we were doing before the war. It was strictly a business move in my opinion. Fear was exploited... Like previously stated: It was by the hands of Capitalism that these men rose, and due to their need to expand their markets, they attempted to create an iraqi colony.
I do not necessarily agree with communism, but consider Lenin may have still known a thing or two. |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Tormentor wrote: | | Also, I'd like to mention that iraq had NOTHING to do with Afghanistan or September 11th, or ANYTHING at all that we were doing before the war. It was strictly a business move in my opinion. Fear was exploited... Like previously stated: It was by the hands of Capitalism that these men rose, and due to their need to expand their markets, they attempted to create an iraqi colony. |
So what?
It has nothing to do with capitalism.
What you describe is government intervention in the economy - socialism.
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rock
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: |
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However, the fact that corruption did occur is a byproduct of capitalism, no?
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What? lol no...
Corruption is so much bigger then capitalism, corruption is what happens when people have the ability to take advantage of something that could be considered unethical. Be it people, business, or government corruption will exist. I think corruption is far more a byproduct of society than it is any economic system or government system.
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Eyedunno
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Capitalism has nothing to do with political maneuvering or corporatism, which are both products of government.
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Klarky
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | | Capitalism has nothing to do with political maneuvering or corporatism, which are both products of government. |
Indeed, but it's important to add... Since we in the west, historically for the most part, have known "Capitalism" in the guise of government interventionism, It's easy to see why people associate capitalism with corporatism and essentially blame the free-market instead of the State.
If you dispose of the term "Capitalism" for reasons of accuracy, to avoid confusion and argument and call it what it really is; "free-market economics" then it will become obvious what is really responsible.
Although Halliburton is a big and powerful corporation, the only institution that can afford to muster the extensive resources for a war overseas has always been the state. One must question the right for a state to exist if it courts partnerships with private corporations and individuals.
| rock wrote: | | Corruption is so much bigger then capitalism |
I agree with this also.
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Lenin: Imperialism is an advanced stage of Capitalism |
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| Tormentor wrote: | | Is this not true? |
No, it's not. It's an advanced stage of socialist mercantilism.
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LOLatChristians
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | | Capitalism has nothing to do with political maneuvering or corporatism, which are both products of government. |
In the sense of the economy itself, but I was thinking more about the effects of capitalism (see my socialist hypothetical). Because these companies are so rich and powerful (as a result of the free market), and the politicians are crooked, corruption occurred.
It's not 100% due to capitalism, but I do think it plays a rather large role that I believe some of you may be ignoring.
I do agree that corruption is bound to happen in any system, but it's never exactly the same corruption. I think the corruption-for-oil example is one of the bigger examples of corruption that has cost the country billions of dollars, nearly a million total lives (hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, heading to 4,000 Americans, among others), going on 8 years of regression after overall progression in the Clinton administration (not that I support that administration), etc. That corruption is a result of capitalism.
I've said on here before that I am a proponent of democratic socialism, but I'm not trying to push that agenda. I realize both have their advantages, and both have their drawbacks. This is simply one of the drawbacks I see with capitalism. And yes, the people that are corrupt play a large role (larger than the economy) in it. |
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LOLatChristians wrote: | | Eyedunno wrote: | | Capitalism has nothing to do with political maneuvering or corporatism, which are both products of government. |
In the sense of the economy itself, but I was thinking more about the effects of capitalism (see my socialist hypothetical). Because these companies are so rich and powerful (as a result of the free market), and the politicians are crooked, corruption occurred. |
Well, yes and no. Yes, ceteris paribus, the wealthy do have more resources to sway politics. But I take issue with the claim that these companies are wealthy and powerful because of the free market. If the free market were enough, they wouldn't need to incorporate, and they wouldn't need a safety net to insulate them from risk and responsibility. |
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LOLatChristians
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | | Well, yes and no. Yes, ceteris paribus, the wealthy do have more resources to sway politics. But I take issue with the claim that these companies are wealthy and powerful because of the free market. If the free market were enough, they wouldn't need to incorporate, and they wouldn't need a safety net to insulate them from risk and responsibility. |
Would you mind elaborating on that? The way I'm reading it, it seems like you're backing up my statement, which I'm pretty sure you're not wholly doing.
It is capitalism that allows this type of corruption to occur because there are little to no restrictions on the interaction between politicians and their business interests. In that sense, it is also the legislation (the lack thereof) that also allows the corruption to occur.
Because there is no ceiling to how much assets one can attain, these guys (the politicians and their business counterparts) keep reaching upwards to that infinite ceiling.
Also, if we had a socialist economy (I'm not saying we should have one), the government would be in charge of reconstruction in Iraq, rather than contracting private companies to do it.
If you don't believe companies like Halliburton are powerful because of the free market, ask yourself if they would be better off under a less-free economy. The more government restriction you add, the more obsolete companies like Halliburton become.
Hopefully that come off better than an incoherent mess of a post.  |
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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But what I'm saying is that thinking of these companies as "these guys" is part of the problem. The owners of these companies (the shareholders) are for the most part not concerned with the specifics of the companies' management, because they don't have to be. The shareholders aren't going to be the ones going to jail if something underhanded is going on; all they need to know is whether or not a profit is being made. Compare that with true private ownership, where the owners (the capitalists, if you will) are intimately entwined with their property, for better or for worse.
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