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Moloth
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it?
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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romans120
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus died for our sins |
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| SmellingTheCoffee wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | So....are we forgiven for our sin or not? Did Jesus just sorta do the best that he could on the cross and we are still damned?
WTF? What was the "sacrifice" for if we are not all going to heaven? What a pathetic gesture of Jesus to sacrifice himself to himself so He could sorta maybe forgive us.
 |
Welcome to the world of limited atonement (the L in TULIP) If you want to know in general how theistic systems deal with this issue you need to familiarize yourself with "Gods order of decrees"
these are the main categories
Supra-lapsarianism - God decreed to
1 - save some and reprobate others
2 - create both
3 - permit the fall of both
4 - send Christ to redeem the elect
5 - send the Holy Spirit to apply the redemption to the elect
infra-lapsarianism (limited atonement) - God decreed to
1- to create man
2 - permit the fall
3 - elect some of the fallen to be saved leave others as they are
4 - provide a redeemer for the elect
5 - send the Holy Spirit to apply the redemption to the elect
variation of infralapsarianism - God decreed to
1 - to create man
2 - permit the fall
3 - provide in Christ redemption sufficient for all
4 - elect some of the fallen to be saved leave others as they are
5 - send the Holy Spirit to secure the acceptance of redemption of the elect
This variation exists soley so to preserve unlimited atonement and still believe in election. all in all it is saying the same thing as infra-lapsarianism except qualifying the atonement as sufficient but not effective for all mankind. something those believing infra - lapsarianism would not deny |
If I understand what you are saying, then the belief goes something like this:
God created man. God let man fall. Man was now condemned to Hell. God picked out a select group of people who he was going “save” from Hell. God sent Jesus to die on the cross to secure their salvation. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to ensure these people would choose to accept him (Jesus) as saviour. Everybody else was and is disposable.
Before I go any further, please let me know if this is what is being claimed. |
what you said is more in-line with the variation while I identify more with the wording of infra-lapsarianism and grant the qualifier that the atonement was sufficient for all but that for the most part accurate I emboldened the part I don't fully accept. I would say "apply redemption" as opposed to" ensure acceptence"
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The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
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Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple...
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Newman
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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" Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to ensure these people would choose to accept him"
this makes no sense, to ensure is to leave no room for choice
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"Love Life"
Last edited by Newman on Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Philosophos
Do it
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus died for our sins |
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| hillbillyatheist wrote: |
the bad news is that the bible sides with the Calvinists. |
I know you can't read, but the Bible is on tape nowadays, so that doesn't give you an excuse.
In all seriousness, I, for a brief time, thought that Calvinism was "the most Biblical" stance (I still think that Calvinist philosophers are cranking out the best philosophy of Christianity to date, though... placing them 2nd to Catholicism in terms of Christian intellectual tradition). But the fact is that all stances that don't recognize the Bible as a heterogeneous document fall into the same trap. Here are some Arminian verses for you, you sheep-fucking hick:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)
"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4)
"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Romans 5:1 .
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
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kmisho
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | yeah, i;ve never really understood what CHANGED, exactly, about the whole 'sacrifice' of Jesus and all that. |
if you take that Jesus exist as a base, we were all doomed and would never have the chance to be in heaven, as Jesus died in the cross for us, now we can enter heaven, the quick and dirty version.. |
What about all the people that came before Jebus? Did they get forgiven too? |
Forget that.
My question is, why was it necesssary to TORTURE AND MURDER someone to open up the pearly gates?
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K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
LOL... He created a place of eternal suffering and torture, with FULL foreknowledge that the people he 'loves' and created are going to go there... and you're accusing ME of 'twisting words'?? LOL... the only twisting going on is in your head as you attempt to apologize for a malevolent deity!
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www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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kmisho
Stochastic
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Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
Then Jesus was irrelevant, right?
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 3:58 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
LOL... He created a place of eternal suffering and torture, with FULL foreknowledge that the people he 'loves' and created are going to go there... and you're accusing ME of 'twisting words'?? LOL... the only twisting going on is in your head as you attempt to apologize for a malevolent deity! |
The Bible teaches that God did not create hell as a judgment for humanity. God created hell for the punishment of the devil and his angels and not as a place for human beings to suffer. Hell was created as a place of judgment for Satan and those who followed him in their rebellion against God. The Bible says that the devil and his angels will eventually be consigned to hell. Human beings, who are created in God's image, are not meant to spend eternity away from the presence of God. The place God created for them is heaven. Jesus spoke of this place that God has prepared for those who trust Him.
Hell was not created for humanity, but it is the destination for those who reject God's salvation in Jesus Christ.
when I said twisting words, is presenting a point like this
"" Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to ensure these people would choose to accept him"
to ensure is not leave any room for choice in a sentence like this, by presenting similar points, your bias on the subject shows, thats all.
like I have said many times, its futile to debate the word of God, if in the first place dont believe in any God.
Yes, we as Christians are called to sow seeds, yes I agree, but I also agree everyone here has a seed, since you have read the Bible and you have debated till no end Gods existance, yet you stilll have the seed that is spoken about, and you choose not to believe, and I respect that.
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 3:58 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
Then Jesus was irrelevant, right? |
no
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hillbillyatheist
Administrator
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 15946
Local time: 3:58 AM
Location: Denver Colorado.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus died for our sins |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | hillbillyatheist wrote: |
the bad news is that the bible sides with the Calvinists. |
I know you can't read, but the Bible is on tape nowadays, so that doesn't give you an excuse.
In all seriousness, I, for a brief time, thought that Calvinism was "the most Biblical" stance (I still think that Calvinist philosophers are cranking out the best philosophy of Christianity to date, though... placing them 2nd to Catholicism in terms of Christian intellectual tradition). But the fact is that all stances that don't recognize the Bible as a heterogeneous document fall into the same trap. Here are some Arminian verses for you, you sheep-fucking hick:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)
"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Timothy 2:6).
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4)
"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Romans 5:1.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9). |
hmm looks like bible is contradicting itself again. somehow I am not feeling very shocked! 
Last edited by hillbillyatheist on Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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baddogma
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
LOL... He created a place of eternal suffering and torture, with FULL foreknowledge that the people he 'loves' and created are going to go there... and you're accusing ME of 'twisting words'?? LOL... the only twisting going on is in your head as you attempt to apologize for a malevolent deity! |
The Bible teaches that God did not create hell as a judgment for humanity. God created hell for the punishment of the devil and his angels and not as a place for human beings to suffer. Hell was created as a place of judgment for Satan and those who followed him in their rebellion against God. The Bible says that the devil and his angels will eventually be consigned to hell. Human beings, who are created in God's image, are not meant to spend eternity away from the presence of God. The place God created for them is heaven. Jesus spoke of this place that God has prepared for those who trust Him.
Hell was not created for humanity, but it is the destination for those who reject God's salvation in Jesus Christ.
when I said twisting words, is presenting a point like this
"" Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to ensure these people would choose to accept him"
to ensure is not leave any room for choice in a sentence like this, by presenting similar points, your bias on the subject shows, thats all.
like I have said many times, its futile to debate the word of God, if in the first place dont believe in any God.
Yes, we as Christians are called to sow seeds, yes I agree, but I also agree everyone here has a seed, since you have read the Bible and you have debated till no end Gods existance, yet you stilll have the seed that is spoken about, and you choose not to believe, and I respect that. |
So says Sect 3,873.
I chose not to believe in god the same way I chose to be straight.
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kmisho
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Joined: 05 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
Then Jesus was irrelevant, right? |
no |
Irrational response.
"to ensure is not leave any room for choice in a sentence like this, by presenting similar points, your bias on the subject shows, thats all."
We are "ensured" to conform to god's prior knowledge. You have a bias toward free will, when the god-idea expressly disallows it.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music
Last edited by kmisho on Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: |
Hell was not created for humanity, but it is the destination for those who reject God's salvation in Jesus Christ.
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...which includes approx. 2/3 of all humans currently on the planet, and a huge amount of all the people who have ever and will ever live. So which is it?
_________________
"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 3:58 AM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Newman wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | lol... the ol' Free-will 'get out of jail free' card...
If God created us, he created the universe in which we exist, he created every influence and brain-cell... he IS ultimately responsible for our actions. he is not a parent.. he is a roboticist.
if he chose to, he could have created a reality in which humans could've had free-will AND where we followed the commandments.
there are two possibilities to explain this:
1. he was unable to do it, therefore, not omnipotent and not God.
2. he CHOSE to create a reality in which his 'loved children' were going to be sent to Hell.
so.. he is either not God OR he is malevolent.
which is it? |
sure, the way you choose to interpret and twist words off course its evil..
he simply gave us free will, WE choose to follow him or not to follow him...simple... |
LOL... He created a place of eternal suffering and torture, with FULL foreknowledge that the people he 'loves' and created are going to go there... and you're accusing ME of 'twisting words'?? LOL... the only twisting going on is in your head as you attempt to apologize for a malevolent deity! |
The Bible teaches that God did not create hell as a judgment for humanity. God created hell for the punishment of the devil and his angels and not as a place for human beings to suffer. Hell was created as a place of judgment for Satan and those who followed him in their rebellion against God. The Bible says that the devil and his angels will eventually be consigned to hell. Human beings, who are created in God's image, are not meant to spend eternity away from the presence of God. The place God created for them is heaven. Jesus spoke of this place that God has prepared for those who trust Him.
Hell was not created for humanity, but it is the destination for those who reject God's salvation in Jesus Christ.
when I said twisting words, is presenting a point like this
"" Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to ensure these people would choose to accept him"
to ensure is not leave any room for choice in a sentence like this, by presenting similar points, your bias on the subject shows, thats all.
like I have said many times, its futile to debate the word of God, if in the first place dont believe in any God.
Yes, we as Christians are called to sow seeds, yes I agree, but I also agree everyone here has a seed, since you have read the Bible and you have debated till no end Gods existance, yet you stilll have the seed that is spoken about, and you choose not to believe, and I respect that. |
So says Sect 3,873.
I chose not to believe in god the same way I chose to be straight. |
semantics, you understood the meaning of what I said,
I can see something or hear something, I can choose to believe or not believe, same principle.
you were not born believing, at some point you were presented with the concept, you decided hmmm, no evidence, so no I will not believe, or you can say, ok, I do believe, to me thats a choice..
its irrelevant to this thread... and the discussion
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