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| As an atheist, how anti-theism are you? |
| I will work toward world abolition of all forms of faith based belief! |
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20% |
[ 14 ] |
| I don't care what people believe, but the organize religions gotta go. |
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33% |
[ 23 ] |
| I don't care about the organized religions, as long as they leave me to my beliefs (or lack there of). |
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37% |
[ 26 ] |
| Organized religions are ok. They do good work and all but I just don't have much use for 'em. |
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4% |
[ 3 ] |
| Who, me? I'm a theist and probably shouldn't even be voting on this. |
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4% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 69 |
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jaycorath
Inoffendable
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 3497
Local time: 8:05 PM
Location: Los Angeles
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
I didn't vote that one but they do good works far beyond attempting to convert people to their religion. I know there are some who have done what you have said. |
Yes, I agree. It didn't come across exactly the way I wanted, which is to say that I think its extremely lame that they can’t just help people to help people. They have to do it for Jeezy. And some way or another there’s always a catch, even if it’s a very, very minor thing. I can give an example:
Last week I went with my sister to a nearby homeless shelter to feed some homeless people. I was the only person there who isn’t a evangelical who goes to my sister’s church. Although as I’ve said they were all there because they think Jeezy would want them to, but at least there wasn’t really any attempt to convert anyone. The only thing they did, aside from feeding them, was they had a pile of postcard thingies inviting them to come to their church sometime with a number to call if they need a ride and then while the people were eating they went around asking them if they had any prayer requests. It wasn't at all "in-your-face" and I really wasn't very bothered by it. My criticism is more on a technicality, on minutia.
I don’t mean to say they aren’t genuinely trying to help. Its not like they’re *only* there to try to convert people, but something just doesn’t sit with me well that they’re doing it *because* of their religion, not just because. Are they there because they’re trying to attract people to their church (mind you, to attract very vulnerable people) or because they just want to help someone out?
I’d say it’s a mix of both. And I guess maybe I’m just an arrogant prick for thinking its more noble to help just to help, not to attract people to an organization or try to convince people that my belief system is superior. I would never go feed homeless people and then pass out cards telling them that god is dead and they should come join the local atheist group. I’d venture to guess that if I did that while they were passing out their church invitations they would NOT be AT ALL happy with me. I don’t think they’re the sort of people who would attack me physically or something, but whether or not they act, I don’t think they’d be thinking, “Hmmm, well, this guy is just doing what he believes like we are. He has a right to his opinion and I feel no animosity towards him.” I think they'd probably all be thinking i'm satan's representative and that they should pray for my soul. No matter how hard I worked to be kind and friendly and helpful, they'd probably be thinking I'm working for the devil.
| Quote: | | I can't know who is in the minority or majority but I do know that I benefitted greatly from "Catholic good will " when I was a Catholic and it was not to convert me but to help me. |
Were these “good will” services for anyone? Or was it aid for fellow catholics? I’m just curious.
| Quote: | | Also history abounds with everything they started because of the good parts of the bible where Jesus does say to help the poor, the sick and the hungry. |
True, and its good that some people have been nice to others because Jeezy told them to
| Quote: | | Today's theists are monitored a lot more than the historical invaders who brought their religions and forced them on everybody. |
True, theists and atheists. Indeed, anyone with any kind of belief system is more restrained from forcing those beliefs on others than in the past.
| Quote: | | While there are good works done by public institutions, they still could not replace the theist ones if those all fell away today. |
Part of the reason for that is that public non-religious institutions don’t receive donations from pious theists who contribute mostly or only to organizations created and run by their religious faction. I’m not saying that theists ONLY contribute or help out charities of their own particular group, but they certainly heavily favor those.
I think its fine for any charity to be inspired by religious faith to organize to help people. I just think that the religious influence should stop at the inspiration. I'm very careful about contributing to groups that aren't going to try to use the help my money is going to pay for to try to bring anyone into any group, whether its a political, religious or social group. I'm happy to contribute to a group that's inspired by faith as long as the faith influence stops there.
| Quote: | | Also the public ones have their own expectations which sometimes force people into hunger and neglect also. |
Can you elaborate? I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to.
| Quote: | | No view is perfect. |
Absolutely  (except mine of course!)
_________________
"I love and treasure individuals as I meet them; I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to" -George Carlin
Celebrant: Forgive us, Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying.
Congregation: And bare-faced flattery.
--Monty Python's The Meaning of Life |
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Unbeliever
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 2557
Local time: 9:05 PM
Location: The exact center of my observable universe
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Erroneous beliefs lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
Faith-based beliefs are more likely than reality-based beliefs to be erroneous, and so are more likely to lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
I am maximally anti-theism.
_________________
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
Science is a lighthouse,
Faith is the rocks below.
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 11:05 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | Erroneous beliefs lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
Faith-based beliefs are more likely than reality-based beliefs to be erroneous, and so are more likely to lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
I am maximally anti-theism. |
so faith behaviour is not conducive to survival.... could you please elaborate on this point?
_________________
"Love Life" |
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Unbeliever
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 2557
Local time: 9:05 PM
Location: The exact center of my observable universe
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Don't have time today, I'll try to get back to this tomorrow. Only 2 minutes left, not enough time.
_________________
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
Science is a lighthouse,
Faith is the rocks below.
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth |
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Newman
Caribbean Theist
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 2009
Local time: 11:05 PM
Location: San Juan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | | Don't have time today, I'll try to get back to this tomorrow. Only 2 minutes left, not enough time. |
not a problem 
_________________
"Love Life" |
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ShadowWulf
Nerdier than you
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 641
Local time: 9:05 PM
Location: San Bernardino, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I consider myself to be extremely anti-religious. In my day to day live i routinely verbally challenge peoples beliefs when they utter some obvious religious bullshit, or if a conversation somehow takes a turn in that direction. The overwhelming blind stupidity im surrounded with on some days just about drives me mad.
Im told i have a rather intense personality by people alot, a few even go as far as to say it bothers/scares them, so maybe that has something to do with it, i dunno. Intensity got me my wife though so.... |
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BooksCatsEtc
Visitor
Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 13
Local time: 11:05 PM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Raskolnikov wrote: | | I have no problem with religion as long as no one justifies any acts with it. |
Or tries to mix it in with the law, like peanut butter in chocolate. I went for option 4 myself. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 11:05 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | Erroneous beliefs lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
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Sorry, but there is no scientific proof of that. But we do know that certain species rely on deception to survive. So it could be that erroneous behaviour could help... only because for the last 100,000 years, we have been for most of the time on an erroneous course...  |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 10:05 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| jkorath wrote: |
Were these “good will” services for anyone? Or was it aid for fellow catholics? I’m just curious. |
Well, I couldn't really say since they all pertained to my desire to go to a Catholic high school. Tuition was waived for me and my devoutness wasn't tested nor did I have to do anything special. Several years later when I needed a different home, I was assisted by the priest. I worked for my room and board and he just happened to know of a family looking for help. The latter was subject to approval by the family after the interview of course. I occasionally got free rides home which was several hundred miles when there were nuns traveling that way. That was actually a cool way of getting to know them more as people and less as nuns. Do I think they would have given a ride if I wasn't Catholic? Yes, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
| Quote: | | Also the public ones have their own expectations which sometimes force people into hunger and neglect also. |
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Can you elaborate? I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to.
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One example is the homeless who fall between the cracks. They have too much to get assistance and too little to get back on their feet alone. Welfare mothers who want to go to college but still need assistance or some assistance yet don't qualify for the rules. My opinions have been formed from reading over the years so I can't necessarily pinpoint any exact cases and those may have been improved. But I could do research right now and find easily many situations where secular aide has failed somebody and shouldn't have and it was based simply on "rules". New Orleans after Katrina is a good example.
My intention isn't to condemn anybody. I know human error comes in on both theist aide as well as secular. I believe that both are more generous and successful than the negatives that we hear about. My point is just not to point the finger at one source without being realistic about where the problem really lies which IMO is human error and or good sense. |
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Unbeliever
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 2557
Local time: 9:05 PM
Location: The exact center of my observable universe
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Newman wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: | Erroneous beliefs lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
Faith-based beliefs are more likely than reality-based beliefs to be erroneous, and so are more likely to lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
I am maximally anti-theism. |
so faith behaviour is not conducive to survival.... could you please elaborate on this point? |
Well, if someone has faith that they can fly without mechanical aid (an erroneous belief), and that belief leads them to walk off the roof of a very tall building, then said belief was not conducive to survival.
_________________
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
Science is a lighthouse,
Faith is the rocks below.
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth |
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Unbeliever
Forum Master
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 2557
Local time: 9:05 PM
Location: The exact center of my observable universe
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: | Erroneous beliefs lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
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Sorry, but there is no scientific proof of that. But we do know that certain species rely on deception to survive. |
My guess would be that it wasn't conducive to the survival of those who were decieved, who were given erroneous beliefs by the decievers.
_________________
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
Science is a lighthouse,
Faith is the rocks below.
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 11:05 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: | Erroneous beliefs lead to behaviour not conducive to survival.
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Sorry, but there is no scientific proof of that. But we do know that certain species rely on deception to survive. |
My guess would be that it wasn't conducive to the survival of those who were decieved, who were given erroneous beliefs by the decievers. |
There's no can tell: erroneous beliefs can work, positively or negatively, for either the deceiver or the deceived. There's no straight line in the game of survival, and what works today might not work at all in a century from now. |
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ImRunninUDown!33
Fap Police
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 663
Local time: 12:05 AM
Location: Cherryville, North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Option 2
i hate how televangelists make so much money off of fake healings and still dont pay taxes :/
its wrong that a majority of this country is theist
probably why this place is a looney bin
_________________
In all things that are purely social we can be as seperate as fingers, yet one as the hand in all things essential to mutual progress. - Booker T. Washington |
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Wander
Forum Leader
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 540
Local time: 11:05 PM
Location: The Island of Koridai
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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On my best day, option 3. On my worst, option 1. I can tolerate even organized religion to a degree if it stays out of my government, my schools, and my courtrooms. Of course, it can't seem to do that with any consistency, so I really would like to see it all get flushed.
_________________
Regarding creationists: Aren't these the same people who gave us alchemy and astrology, and who told us the earth, besides being flat, was at the center of the universe? Why don't we just kill these fucking people? ~George Carlin |
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Rortykiller
Forum Leader
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 722
Local time: 11:05 PM
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think that nothing helps a murderer on death row more than Jesus, or turns a criminal black man into an international leaderbetter than Islam.
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"rights" are the modern recontextualizing of "holy"; a romanticized state of being beyond reproach. |
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