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CHFleming
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: Gun Rights Question |
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After the VT incident, I've heard many advocates of gun freedom express the idea that VT should not have been a gun free campus. I find this thinking bizarre, but not because I disagree with this incidence. If everyone had a gun at their hip, then perhaps fewer people would have died. On the other hand, perhaps the perpetrator would have done something different like a suicide bombing.
I find this thinking bizarre because I can't make any sense of the bigger picture. Should we all be allowed to carry guns on airplanes? Where was this thinking after 9-11? I don't see any conservatives fighting for the right to pack heat on airplanes. And if college students should be allowed to carry weapons, then what about high school students? There would be high school students old enough. I don't see any conservatives fighting for the right to pack heat in a high school. To this list we can also add hospitals, the floor of congress, and the location of the president's next speech. Basically, I see two modes of thinking: gun freedom in non-critical situations, but no gun freedom in critical situations. I don't hear any viewpoints that aren't extremely hypocritical at some level. And I can't imagine a sane viewpoint that isn't. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Actually, there were many people fighting for at least the pilots to be able to carry firearms on airplanes.
As for government buildings, the thinking is that there's enough security to deter it anyway. Of course, the recent bombing in the "Green Zone" shoots that down.
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CHFleming
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Actually, there were many people fighting for at least the pilots to be able to carry firearms on airplanes. |
I perfectly well remember that and I support it. But that isn't gun freedom.
| Quote: | | As for government buildings, the thinking is that there's enough security to deter it anyway. Of course, the recent bombing in the "Green Zone" shoots that down. |
So it's not a matter of respecting a right but security? Wouldn't we be more secure if the only people that had guns was the security? |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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How do we accomplish the only people having guns being security if we do not forcibly disarm the populace? Clearly, the "Green Zone" bombing shoots down the idea that only they will.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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sjc
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Gun Rights Question |
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| CHFleming wrote: | After the VT incident, I've heard many advocates of gun freedom express the idea that VT should not have been a gun free campus. I find this thinking bizarre, but not because I disagree with this incidence. If everyone had a gun at their hip, then perhaps fewer people would have died. On the other hand, perhaps the perpetrator would have done something different like a suicide bombing.
I find this thinking bizarre because I can't make any sense of the bigger picture. Should we all be allowed to carry guns on airplanes? Where was this thinking after 9-11? I don't see any conservatives fighting for the right to pack heat on airplanes. And if college students should be allowed to carry weapons, then what about high school students? There would be high school students old enough. I don't see any conservatives fighting for the right to pack heat in a high school. To this list we can also add hospitals, the floor of congress, and the location of the president's next speech. Basically, I see two modes of thinking: gun freedom in non-critical situations, but no gun freedom in critical situations. I don't hear any viewpoints that aren't extremely hypocritical at some level. And I can't imagine a sane viewpoint that isn't. |
To their way of thinking the old West must have been the safest time in American history because just about everyone was armed. That there were no outlaws at all. That it wasn't lawless and property was in no way threatened.... Now we see how myths are created with that sort of belief.
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the myth of the "wild west" is a myth--I agree, sjc. For when you look at it, the number of murders in the 5 major cattle towns during a 15-year period of the "wild west" was a TOTAL of 45. Average total for the 5 cattle towns per year: 3. And the figures show that several times one or more of the towns had no murders at all in a given year during the "wild west" period.
But that's just the facts talking. Do go on with your hysterics and histrionics.
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aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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CHFleming
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | How do we accomplish the only people having guns being security if we do not forcibly disarm the populace? |
Are you serious? You don't have to forcibly disarm the populace. You could ban the importation, sale, transfer, and inheritance of whatever class of weapons you want to outlaw (sans certain exceptions) and require mandatory registration and licensing as we do with automobiles. Then it would be just a matter of letting time take it's course. If you want a faster transition, you could have some incentives like trade ins.
| Quote: | | Clearly, the "Green Zone" bombing shoots down the idea that only they will. |
I don't see much logic in referencing a country in the middle of a occupation/civil war/insurgency/wasp's nest of terrorism. But regardless, nobody is claiming that no criminal will ever be able to obtain a weapon. That's simply a straw man. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | How do we accomplish the only people having guns being security if we do not forcibly disarm the populace? |
| CHFleming wrote: | | Are you serious? |
Yes, because all of the things you suggest don't work, as evidenced by reality.
| Knight of BAAWA wrote: | | Clearly, the "Green Zone" bombing shoots down the idea that only they will. |
| CHFleming wrote: | | I don't see much logic in referencing a country in the middle of a occupation/civil war/insurgency/wasp's nest of terrorism. But regardless, nobody is claiming that no criminal will ever be able to obtain a weapon. That's simply a straw man. |
Ummmm....actually, you are claiming just that. All of your suggestions are aimed at no one having firearms. But it doesn't work.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man" |
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CHFleming
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | Yes, the myth of the "wild west" is a myth--I agree, sjc. For when you look at it, the number of murders in the 5 major cattle towns during a 15-year period of the "wild west" was a TOTAL of 45. Average total for the 5 cattle towns per year: 3. And the figures show that several times one or more of the towns had no murders at all in a given year during the "wild west" period.
But that's just the facts talking. Do go on with your hysterics and histrionics. |
It was against the law to have a gun on your person in both Dodge and Tombstone. |
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | Yes, the myth of the "wild west" is a myth--I agree, sjc. For when you look at it, the number of murders in the 5 major cattle towns during a 15-year period of the "wild west" was a TOTAL of 45. Average total for the 5 cattle towns per year: 3. And the figures show that several times one or more of the towns had no murders at all in a given year during the "wild west" period.
But that's just the facts talking. Do go on with your hysterics and histrionics. |
What is that in percentage?
Around here the last person that was murdered was 20 years ago, but statistically that's around the same as in Denmark.
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"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman
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sjc
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sjc
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| CHFleming wrote: | | It was against the law to have a gun on your person in both Dodge and Tombstone. |
That is irrelevant since most believe that guns were common back then and also believed that it was the firearms that made them safer. Thats why I had said the old West.
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide.
Last edited by sjc on Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CHFleming
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | | How do we accomplish the only people having guns being security if we do not forcibly disarm the populace? |
| CHFleming wrote: | | Are you serious? |
Yes, because all of the things you suggest don't work, as evidenced by reality.
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This is just as convincing as "god is real, as evidenced by reality". I'd take you more seriously if you took the time to deconstruct the example I gave or provided some evidence to your blanket statement instead of simply dodging the argument.
| Quote: |
| Knight of BAAWA wrote: | | Clearly, the "Green Zone" bombing shoots down the idea that only they will. |
| CHFleming wrote: | | I don't see much logic in referencing a country in the middle of a occupation/civil war/insurgency/wasp's nest of terrorism. But regardless, nobody is claiming that no criminal will ever be able to obtain a weapon. That's simply a straw man. |
Ummmm....actually, you are claiming just that. All of your suggestions are aimed at no one having firearms. But it doesn't work. |
Point out where I said that. You've created a strawman out of your own assumptions. |
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sjc
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Sal1981 wrote: | What is that in percentage?
Around here the last person that was murdered was 20 years ago, but statistically that's around the same as in Denmark. |
And does his numbers also include non-murder numbers such as accidental firearm usage and the fact that most went unreported as well?
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: | Yes, the myth of the "wild west" is a myth--I agree, sjc. For when you look at it, the number of murders in the 5 major cattle towns during a 15-year period of the "wild west" was a TOTAL of 45. Average total for the 5 cattle towns per year: 3. And the figures show that several times one or more of the towns had no murders at all in a given year during the "wild west" period.
But that's just the facts talking. Do go on with your hysterics and histrionics. |
| CHFleming wrote: | | It was against the law to have a gun on your person in both Dodge and Tombstone. |
Local ordinance. Of course, it wasn't as upheld as it could be, but the # of murders puts to lie the "wild west" belief.
_________________
aa #51, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Last edited by Knight_of_BAAWA on Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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