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Azrael
Celestial Teapotist
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 540
Local time: 10:48 PM
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Bardolph86 wrote: | | Francis Collins- worth mentioning for his competence in genetics, but somehow too stupid to realize evolution is wrong. Man, why is it that the people in relevant fields of study always seem to get it wrong? |
He was an atheist. He came to the realization that science didn't have all the answers after all. How is open mindedness stupid? |
Science never claims to have all the answers. Anything that does claim to have all the answers is working from stupidity.
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I'm not insane, at least that's what the voices in my head tell me. |
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Gerard
Nemesis (archly so)
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 3996
Local time: 3:48 AM
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Gerard wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | joshuas3521 wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | HAHAHA!! I love it when science speaks. They're so...certain! HAHAHA! |
You, my friend, are a fucking idiot.
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So tell me. What should I BELIEVE about the polar ice caps on mars? Which ever one sounds best? to me? |
Has it ever occured to you that there are things that we know more about than we know about other things?
Gerard |
That's for certain. |
Then why be disparaging about the knowledge we have? You can always point at something we don't know a lot about, to ridicule science and those who have given us insight in and knowledge about things, but is seems a bit cheap and unrespectfull to me. Especially when it is done to foster an agenda that has no connection to science whatsoever exept that it feels threatned by it.
| Quote: | | But compared to the sum total of what's knowable? It's like one atom of knowledge to an earth size of available knowledge. |
And that's supposed to make the knowledge we do have worthless? Or give legitimacy to unsubstantiated assertions? Besides, how do you know that anyway?
| Quote: | | Why anyone would think we have the capacity for omniscience would be visions of grandeur. |
Who is anyone here? You're just making an iron man. Nobody says we have capacity for omniscience.
| Quote: | | But even worse is to admit that we can't possibly know all, yet maintain we know with certainty that there is no one behind the order and design. Again, a vision of grandeur. To look at all we see through the telescope and microscope and declare, we're alone. |
We don't believe that, for which there is no evidence and causes problems for the consistency of what we observe. Those are good reasons to lack belief in the unsubstantiated. Your talk about grandeur is just a disparaging apeal to emotion. A deeply philistine emotion. An emotion that calls upon us to degrade and belittle ourselves.
Gerard
_________________
The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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WashMDJD
Forum Leader
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 766
Local time: 7:48 PM
Location: Everett/Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: |
That's for certain. But compared to the sum total of what's knowable? It's like one atom of knowledge to an earth size of available knowledge. Why anyone would think we have the capacity for omniscience would be visions of grandeur. But even worse is to admit that we can't possibly know all, yet maintain we know with certainty that there is no one behind the order and design. Again, a vision of grandeur. To look at all we see through the telescope and microscope and declare, we're alone. |
If not for skimming a few dozen pages of the apologist dementia you're spawning over in your more popular thread, Missionary, I'd half believe you were joking when you said this. Unfortunately, I have a sinking suspicion that you're either A) a troll just trying to get somebody to respond to you (and having it work marvelously), or B) simply bereft of critical thinking skills.
Can you really have meant to have said what you just said? Did you think through what you said, how it impacts on your positions, and how it might impact other issues as well? I'd be astonished to hear you say yes to those questions, because it utterly and totally defeats Christianity, most Christian claims about the empirical (and spiritual) world, and invites the most damaging and pernicious nonsense to enter the fray as intellectually co-equal with the most solid of ideas.
So it's a mistake to assert that there is nobody behind what you (and almost only you on this board) see as design, since we aren't omniscient, is it? Good point. I guess it's also a mistake for you to fail to recognize the truth of the creation of the world by Mbombo, an African god, by vomiting it up. It's good to see that you, in your non-omniscience, are prepared to sacrifice babies to Tlaloc, the Aztec god of fertility, in order to make it rain. I'd like to see your prayer to Agat-Talai prepared and presented for us, in gratitude for her keeping the peace in the Thai city-state of Longka. Are you yet ready to base your epistemological claims upon the back of the great Celtic salmon-of-knowledge, Fintan?
No?
Wow. Who'd have guessed? 
Do you see why I'm disturbed to see that statement come off of your electronic pen? If it is a mistake to hold the existential negative in the absence of evidence, it is doubly a mistake to hold the existential positive. Your statement to the contrary is not a support for your one God. It is a support for every god mankind has ever dreamed up, will ever dream up, or could ever dream up all rolled into one - and it allows absolutely no principled stand to be made between admitting the existence of only one god and admitting the existence of millions. In short, Missionary, what you've just provided is a recipe for a very crowded sky.
It's a pity that our epistemological uncertainty prevents us from being charmed by the blandishments of one of the more repulsive gods to have been spawned by pre-literate, bronze-age, unwashed desert savages who thought that it was appropriate to bludgeon people to death with rocks for eating shellfish or cutting their hair. It appears that your God has no other merciful option but to burn the lot of us for all eternity in his evil pit of tortures. Sigh. Oh well.
I do expect to see that prayer to Agat-Talai, though. And keep your daggers sharp and an infant close by - there might be a drought coming.
_________________
"Ne mea dona tibi studio disposta fideli,
Intellecta prius quam sint, contempta reliquas."
-Lucretius, De rerum natura
("...that my gifts here set forth for you with faithful solicitude, may not by you be contempuously discarded before they have been understood.")
"Mes amis, si j'avance, suivez-moi! Si je recule, tuez-moi! Si je meurs, vengez-moi!" --Henri de la Rochejaquelein |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 1:48 PM
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ApostateLois wrote: | | Look, bottom line is, if there was a God "behind everything," it would have manifested itself in some way that would be unmistakable to everyone on the planet. We wouldn't have all these different religions and denominations with vastly different ideas of who and what God is, because it would be patently obvious who and what God is, to the point that it wouldn't need to be explained. How different history would be if God really existed and everyone knew it and it was simply another fact of life, like water and air. There would be no religions, no holy wars, and no endless arguments over what this God thing is all about. |
And that wouldn't be a choice. That would be, "OMG the camera is me 24/7 I can't even breathe!" |
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Gerard
Nemesis (archly so)
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 3996
Local time: 3:48 AM
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | ApostateLois wrote: | | Look, bottom line is, if there was a God "behind everything," it would have manifested itself in some way that would be unmistakable to everyone on the planet. We wouldn't have all these different religions and denominations with vastly different ideas of who and what God is, because it would be patently obvious who and what God is, to the point that it wouldn't need to be explained. How different history would be if God really existed and everyone knew it and it was simply another fact of life, like water and air. There would be no religions, no holy wars, and no endless arguments over what this God thing is all about. |
And that wouldn't be a choice. That would be, "OMG the camera is me 24/7 I can't even breathe!" |
And why would there have to be a choice? A lot of things in this world are unmistakebly manifest. We live with them because they are a part of what our world is. If God were unmistakebly manifest how would that be any different? That's just mystifying speculation.
Gerard
_________________
The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*)
Last edited by Gerard on Sun May 18, 2008 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Missionary
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Local time: 1:48 PM
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Azrael wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Bardolph86 wrote: | | Francis Collins- worth mentioning for his competence in genetics, but somehow too stupid to realize evolution is wrong. Man, why is it that the people in relevant fields of study always seem to get it wrong? |
He was an atheist. He came to the realization that science didn't have all the answers after all. How is open mindedness stupid? |
Science never claims to have all the answers. Anything that does claim to have all the answers is working from stupidity. |
Some people really believe science will have all the answers. That's what they're banking on anyway. |
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Gerard
Nemesis (archly so)
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 3996
Local time: 3:48 AM
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Azrael wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Bardolph86 wrote: | | Francis Collins- worth mentioning for his competence in genetics, but somehow too stupid to realize evolution is wrong. Man, why is it that the people in relevant fields of study always seem to get it wrong? |
He was an atheist. He came to the realization that science didn't have all the answers after all. How is open mindedness stupid? |
Science never claims to have all the answers. Anything that does claim to have all the answers is working from stupidity. |
Some people really believe science will have all the answers. That's what they're banking on anyway. |
Yeah well....... some people will believe anything.
Gerard
_________________
The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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Gerard
Nemesis (archly so)
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 3996
Local time: 3:48 AM
Location: Groningen, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Grand Canyon Arguement... |
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| Shiranu wrote: | ...Okay, so as I wander around the youtube, going from music to atheist debate to music to w/e... I came across alot of people saying the Grand Cayons PROVE creationism, and DISPROVE "EVILlution".
While they are clearly ignorant of...basically anything that revolves around science, besides the scewed info their preachers give them, HOW could the Grand Canyons disprove evolution? Geology, I can see them SOMEHOW getting at, but "EVILoution"? Not so much.
Isn't there evidence, besides common sense and looking at the rest of the world, that water, flowing in that area for millions of years, caused it to sink in like that? If any one would have some good articles on why the Grand Canyons do NOT prove the flood story, it would be nice to have them, to pull out on people who would argue otherwise.
Thanks! |
The Grand Canyon argument is basically a prestige thing I guess. As a natural phenomenon the GC is such a icon of geology that old earthers find great propaganda value in using just that formation to attack geology. They're just leaving their marks there to claim it for themselves. Much like the neighbours cat urinating in your garden.
Gerard
_________________
The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 2237
Local time: 10:48 PM
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Azrael wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | Bardolph86 wrote: | | Francis Collins- worth mentioning for his competence in genetics, but somehow too stupid to realize evolution is wrong. Man, why is it that the people in relevant fields of study always seem to get it wrong? |
He was an atheist. He came to the realization that science didn't have all the answers after all. How is open mindedness stupid? |
Science never claims to have all the answers. Anything that does claim to have all the answers is working from stupidity. |
Some people really believe science will have all the answers. That's what they're banking on anyway. |
Some people believe that they already have the answers in the form of an ancient, vague, and often contradictory book on the threat of eternal damnation 
Some people you could convince to believe anything
_________________
"What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." --Carl Sagan
"In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." --Douglas Adams
In memory of George Carlin. May he rest in peace.
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 1:48 PM
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gerard wrote: |
Then why be disparaging about the knowledge we have? You can always point at something we don't know a lot about, to ridicule science and those who have given us insight in and knowledge about things, but is seems a bit cheap and unrespectfull to me. Especially when it is done to foster an agenda that has no connection to science whatsoever exept that it feels threatned by it. |
Why be disparaging about the knowledge that I have? I find that a bit cheap and disrespectful as well as nonacademic and unbefitting civil society. My faith isn't threatened by anything much less science or atheism. I'm just pointing out that what people believe they have firmly in their fists can turn into sand tomorrow. Science has two sides. Observation and interpretation. Interpretation is what I'm saying people latch onto and "believe", not the facts. People buy the story that science sells. It's the sizzle on their steak.
| Gerard wrote: | | Quote: | | But compared to the sum total of what's knowable? It's like one atom of knowledge to an earth size of available knowledge. |
And that's supposed to make the knowledge we do have worthless? Or give legitimacy to unsubstantiated assertions? Besides, how do you know that anyway?
| Quote: | | Why anyone would think we have the capacity for omniscience would be visions of grandeur. |
Who is anyone here? You're just making an iron man. Nobody says we have capacity for omniscience.
| Quote: | | But even worse is to admit that we can't possibly know all, yet maintain we know with certainty that there is no one behind the order and design. Again, a vision of grandeur. To look at all we see through the telescope and microscope and declare, we're alone. |
We don't believe that, for which there is no evidence and causes problems for the consistency of what we observe. Those are good reasons to lack belief in the unsubstantiated. Your talk about grandeur is just a disparaging apeal to emotion. A deeply philistine emotion. An emotion that calls upon us to degrade and belittle ourselves.
Gerard |
The knowledge isn't worthless, it's priceless. But it's safe to say we know very little in terms of all there is to know. Therefore there's likely much in store that will amaze and surprise. Giving "legitimacy to unsubstantiated assertions" in regards to claims of the silly would be recklessness. It is equally reckless , knowing what we know and being nowhere near answering origin of energy, matter, and life, to dismiss entirely the notion that an intelligent force far beyond our comprehension is involved.
If you're concern is "An emotion that calls upon us to degrade and belittle ourselves." then you need look no further than apes and the matter of fact claims of 'there is no god'. Because if both were true, emotion, degrading, and belittling, have no meaning or purpose and we're just complex hairy germs fighting for our space in the organism. In fact, there are 6.6 billion hairy germs on the planet each with their own opinion spouting factory. So your concerns need to get in line.
But I don't believe that. you're important and have a plan and purpose. I know you don't buy that. But I know that you and your family are special. Your love for one another goes far beyond reproduction and survival purposes. It has deep meaning that bonds at the root of your soul and very being. You care, you wonder, have compassion, and it's genuine. It's tangible. You can't put that under a microscope and measure it... it's True. and guess what? You know it with 100% certainty my friend. |
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Missionary
Guest
Local time: 1:48 PM
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| WashMDJD wrote: | | Missionary wrote: |
That's for certain. But compared to the sum total of what's knowable? It's like one atom of knowledge to an earth size of available knowledge. Why anyone would think we have the capacity for omniscience would be visions of grandeur. But even worse is to admit that we can't possibly know all, yet maintain we know with certainty that there is no one behind the order and design. Again, a vision of grandeur. To look at all we see through the telescope and microscope and declare, we're alone. |
If not for skimming a few dozen pages of the apologist dementia you're spawning over in your more popular thread, Missionary, I'd half believe you were joking when you said this. Unfortunately, I have a sinking suspicion that you're either A) a troll just trying to get somebody to respond to you (and having it work marvelously), or B) simply bereft of critical thinking skills.
Can you really have meant to have said what you just said? Did you think through what you said, how it impacts on your positions, and how it might impact other issues as well? I'd be astonished to hear you say yes to those questions, because it utterly and totally defeats Christianity, most Christian claims about the empirical (and spiritual) world, and invites the most damaging and pernicious nonsense to enter the fray as intellectually co-equal with the most solid of ideas.
So it's a mistake to assert that there is nobody behind what you (and almost only you on this board) see as design, since we aren't omniscient, is it? Good point. I guess it's also a mistake for you to fail to recognize the truth of the creation of the world by Mbombo, an African god, by vomiting it up. It's good to see that you, in your non-omniscience, are prepared to sacrifice babies to Tlaloc, the Aztec god of fertility, in order to make it rain. I'd like to see your prayer to Agat-Talai prepared and presented for us, in gratitude for her keeping the peace in the Thai city-state of Longka. Are you yet ready to base your epistemological claims upon the back of the great Celtic salmon-of-knowledge, Fintan?
No?
Wow. Who'd have guessed?
Do you see why I'm disturbed to see that statement come off of your electronic pen? If it is a mistake to hold the existential negative in the absence of evidence, it is doubly a mistake to hold the existential positive. Your statement to the contrary is not a support for your one God. It is a support for every god mankind has ever dreamed up, will ever dream up, or could ever dream up all rolled into one - and it allows absolutely no principled stand to be made between admitting the existence of only one god and admitting the existence of millions. In short, Missionary, what you've just provided is a recipe for a very crowded sky.
It's a pity that our epistemological uncertainty prevents us from being charmed by the blandishments of one of the more repulsive gods to have been spawned by pre-literate, bronze-age, unwashed desert savages who thought that it was appropriate to bludgeon people to death with rocks for eating shellfish or cutting their hair. It appears that your God has no other merciful option but to burn the lot of us for all eternity in his evil pit of tortures. Sigh. Oh well.
I do expect to see that prayer to Agat-Talai, though. And keep your daggers sharp and an infant close by - there might be a drought coming. |
Your dogmaticism is prevalent. If not for the personal attack I would have mistaken you for a poet. |
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Citizen X
Forum Plebian
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 185
Local time: 10:48 PM
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Hugga_Bear wrote: | I dont understand the grand canyon argument..what do they think proves that the flood happened?
and lol at VFX, today in the newspaper there were photos of the ice caps on Mars and news that they ran deeper than expected so water will be further below the surface than previously thought elsewhere on the planet...
He is truly demented... |
So, I went looking for ice caps on mars. Pretty cool. This was funny though...LINK
| Quote: | Unsolved puzzles
These findings present a new scientific mystery to those who thought they had a good idea of how the atmospheres of the inner planets compared to each other. Planetary scientists had assumed that Earth, Venus, and Mars are similar in the total carbon dioxide content, with Earth having most of its carbon dioxide locked up in marine carbonates and Venus's carbon dioxide being in the atmosphere and causing the runaway greenhouse effect. By contrast, the 8-meter layer on the south polar ice cap on Mars means the planet has only a small fraction of the carbon dioxide found on Earth and Venus.
The new findings further pose the question of how Mars could have been warm and wet to begin with??. Working backward(HAHAHA), one would assume (AGAIN??) that there was once sufficient carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to trap enough solar energy to warm the planet, but there's not enough carbon dioxide locked in the poles for this to clearly have been the case. There could be other explanations. It could be that Mars was a cold, wet planet; or it could be that the subterranean plumbing would allow for liquid water to be sealed off underneath the surface. In one such scenario, perhaps the water flowed underneath a layer of ice and formed the channels and other erosion features. Then, perhaps, the ice sublimated away, to be eventually redeposited at the poles. |
HAHAHA!! I love it when science speaks. They're so...certain! HAHAHA! |
A perfect example as to why you are a complete and total fucking idiot. You have no intellectual comprehension of any topic, other than your own delusional bullshit in your head that you hold to be the only truth in the universe. If you wish to take part in dialogue that is educational, your first step is to obviously become educated. You could start with the scientific method, since you have no fucking clue what that is. If not, then go back to sucking Jesus' wilted, shriveled dick. But do it somewhere else.
_________________
He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus that would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion, atrocities done in his name |
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Shiranu
Yet Another Avatar Change!
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 3226
Local time: 10:48 PM
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | WashMDJD wrote: | | Missionary wrote: |
That's for certain. But compared to the sum total of what's knowable? It's like one atom of knowledge to an earth size of available knowledge. Why anyone would think we have the capacity for omniscience would be visions of grandeur. But even worse is to admit that we can't possibly know all, yet maintain we know with certainty that there is no one behind the order and design. Again, a vision of grandeur. To look at all we see through the telescope and microscope and declare, we're alone. |
If not for skimming a few dozen pages of the apologist dementia you're spawning over in your more popular thread, Missionary, I'd half believe you were joking when you said this. Unfortunately, I have a sinking suspicion that you're either A) a troll just trying to get somebody to respond to you (and having it work marvelously), or B) simply bereft of critical thinking skills.
Can you really have meant to have said what you just said? Did you think through what you said, how it impacts on your positions, and how it might impact other issues as well? I'd be astonished to hear you say yes to those questions, because it utterly and totally defeats Christianity, most Christian claims about the empirical (and spiritual) world, and invites the most damaging and pernicious nonsense to enter the fray as intellectually co-equal with the most solid of ideas.
So it's a mistake to assert that there is nobody behind what you (and almost only you on this board) see as design, since we aren't omniscient, is it? Good point. I guess it's also a mistake for you to fail to recognize the truth of the creation of the world by Mbombo, an African god, by vomiting it up. It's good to see that you, in your non-omniscience, are prepared to sacrifice babies to Tlaloc, the Aztec god of fertility, in order to make it rain. I'd like to see your prayer to Agat-Talai prepared and presented for us, in gratitude for her keeping the peace in the Thai city-state of Longka. Are you yet ready to base your epistemological claims upon the back of the great Celtic salmon-of-knowledge, Fintan?
No?
Wow. Who'd have guessed?
Do you see why I'm disturbed to see that statement come off of your electronic pen? If it is a mistake to hold the existential negative in the absence of evidence, it is doubly a mistake to hold the existential positive. Your statement to the contrary is not a support for your one God. It is a support for every god mankind has ever dreamed up, will ever dream up, or could ever dream up all rolled into one - and it allows absolutely no principled stand to be made between admitting the existence of only one god and admitting the existence of millions. In short, Missionary, what you've just provided is a recipe for a very crowded sky.
It's a pity that our epistemological uncertainty prevents us from being charmed by the blandishments of one of the more repulsive gods to have been spawned by pre-literate, bronze-age, unwashed desert savages who thought that it was appropriate to bludgeon people to death with rocks for eating shellfish or cutting their hair. It appears that your God has no other merciful option but to burn the lot of us for all eternity in his evil pit of tortures. Sigh. Oh well.
I do expect to see that prayer to Agat-Talai, though. And keep your daggers sharp and an infant close by - there might be a drought coming. |
Your dogmaticism is prevalent. If not for the personal attack I would have mistaken you for a poet. |
[img]C:\Users\Clayne\Pictures\8SK3GWBUGVOVLRW.jpg[/img]
Look whos talking about dogmatism, guys 
_________________
Cheap, Sweat Shop-Free T-Shirts, ranging from Political to Ecological topics.
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I support the Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional (Zapatista Army of National Liberation), EZLN - "ˇYa Basta!" ("Enough is Enough!").
"There are two kinds of people in this world that go around beardless — boys and women — and I am neither one." -Greek saying |
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Hit_me_up024
Forum Master
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 2366
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Location: My parents basement.
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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you pic messed up
_________________
KILL the pancake
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joshuas3521
Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 2237
Local time: 10:48 PM
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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...because it's on his harddrive 
_________________
"What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." --Carl Sagan
"In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move." --Douglas Adams
In memory of George Carlin. May he rest in peace.
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