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Missionary
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| WashMDJD wrote: | | If you rest the truth of the bronze-age writings you can point to on revealed knowledge, you must admit the validity and experiences of the millions of other people who've had real, life-changing, mind-altering religious experiences in the face of what they view as transcendent power - hence the acceptance of a pantheon grander than any yet imagined. |
What you fail to understand here is that baal worship has existed from the beginning. I do in fact admit the validity of spiritual encounters that did not involve encounters with YHWH. It is a fact that this world is under the dominion of the adversary and his fallen angels. As such, it is Lucifer who can appear as an angel of light and deceive the masses. Religion has played a part from the beginning, it is not of God but rather a diversion to keep man away from God and so far the enemy has done pretty well with it. |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | Is Jesus the Christ? |
If you've read your OT, you should know that he is not. If you've read up on the subject, you should know that Jesus is a fairy tale.
Why must we keep going over this? We're on an atheist forum, ferchrissake!! |
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WashMDJD
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: |
Well lets see, you've insulted my God, insulted me, accused me of lying, degraded the scriptures ...let me just ask you, Is Jesus the Christ? |
Interesting. So far, all I've said is that you're either A) a troll, or B) bereft of critical thinking skills. You've yet to prove otherwise.
I'll admit to insulting your God, but that's because your God deserves to be insulted if your God is the God talked about in the Bible. Your God, if it existed, would be cruel, vindictive, unapologetically vile, could countenance the gravest of moral wrongs, and smile unequivically upon the most repugnant of acts. Gods that enjoy blood sacrifices belong to dark cave men, huddled amongst the rocks and trees. Luckily, we've all moved out from the rocks and trees. Our gods, however, stay comfortably where they always were - saddled with the mindset of a barbarian warlord who commands bloodshed and cruelty as if they were normal and beautiful things. As if your God, if it existed, weren't bad enough, the people who dreamed it up tried to cover for it by protesting that it is loving, merciful, and an all-around great guy - a loving, merciful, all-around great guy who once ordered people stoned to death for their hairdos and farming practices. It's a good thing there's no reason to think that your God exists - if it did, this world would be a pretty nightmarish and uncivilized place to live.
I've not accused you of lying yet, so as far as I can see, you're making that part up. Same deal with degrading the scriptures. Either you know of their truth through the observed knowledge, which according to you we can't rely on, or you know about them through revealed knowledge - the source of which necessitates a circular argument on your part. There's no escaping the logic the way you're arguing it. Either we admit your God and every other god ever made up, or you admit that we have no reason to believe in your God or any other. Which way would you like to have it?
As for whether Jesus was "the Christ," I'll leave that for the scholars. The question is meaningless, since the term "The Christ" assumes a philosophical background I don't share with you.
_________________
"Ne mea dona tibi studio disposta fideli,
Intellecta prius quam sint, contempta reliquas."
-Lucretius, De rerum natura
("...that my gifts here set forth for you with faithful solicitude, may not by you be contempuously discarded before they have been understood.")
"Mes amis, si j'avance, suivez-moi! Si je recule, tuez-moi! Si je meurs, vengez-moi!" --Henri de la Rochejaquelein |
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Hugga_Bear
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Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 428
Local time: 4:56 AM
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | WashMDJD wrote: | | If you rest the truth of the bronze-age writings you can point to on revealed knowledge, you must admit the validity and experiences of the millions of other people who've had real, life-changing, mind-altering religious experiences in the face of what they view as transcendent power - hence the acceptance of a pantheon grander than any yet imagined. |
What you fail to understand here is that baal worship has existed from the beginning. I do in fact admit the validity of spiritual encounters that did not involve encounters with YHWH. It is a fact that this world is under the dominion of the adversary and his fallen angels. As such, it is Lucifer who can appear as an angel of light and deceive the masses. Religion has played a part from the beginning, it is not of God but rather a diversion to keep man away from God and so far the enemy has done pretty well with it. |
No, no it's not, please don't convince yourself that it is. It is a fact that humans reproduce sexually and that they are a different species to baboons.
Please. Stop. With. The. Great. Deciever.
As a side point you seem to fail to understand what a robot is. Why shouldn't a machine be capable of love? All it is is the release of certain cocktails of chemicals which induce a reaction.
When humans are described as robots it's not meant to say we are the robots of the 60's. We are the most advanced machines in the world, not jerkily-moving unemotional tin cans...
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"A hero need not be undefeated, merely undaunted." |
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WashMDJD
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | WashMDJD wrote: | | If you rest the truth of the bronze-age writings you can point to on revealed knowledge, you must admit the validity and experiences of the millions of other people who've had real, life-changing, mind-altering religious experiences in the face of what they view as transcendent power - hence the acceptance of a pantheon grander than any yet imagined. |
What you fail to understand here is that baal worship has existed from the beginning. I do in fact admit the validity of spiritual encounters that did not involve encounters with YHWH. It is a fact that this world is under the dominion of the adversary and his fallen angels. As such, it is Lucifer who can appear as an angel of light and deceive the masses. Religion has played a part from the beginning, it is not of God but rather a diversion to keep man away from God and so far the enemy has done pretty well with it. |
This is nothing more than the bald assertion that the others are lies and that yours is right. Every last Sufi Muslim whose religious experiences daily touch the transcendent as the dervishes whirl would say the exact same thing about your religion. Theirs is the true religion and yours is the only imperfect reflection of the truth they have received. Hindus who love their divine laws so much that they die in honor of them would decry your religion as the work of demons. I believe I referenced for you Descartes demon problem earlier. Since you didn't seem to pick up on that point, I'll reiterate it for you.
Descartes argued famously about the 'knowledge problem' and the difficulty in finding a foundation upon which to place truth. What if, Descartes mused, there was a powerful demon that could make a fake world - an illusion - for you that appeared so real that you weren't able to tell the difference between real life and the illusion? If there's even the remote chance that we live in such a world, how could we trust anything that we thought was true? After all, couldn't it all be an illusion, crafted by the demon just for the purpose of lying to us? As soon as you say "Oh, well, my revealed truth is right, but all of the others are lies," you've nicely tapped into Descartes' demon problem. In other words, it is only if we accept your position that your position is true. That's pure, unadulterated circular reasoning, Missionary, and it won't fly. After all, if I was of another faith, I might very well be able to reply back, "No, Missionary. It is I who have touched the face of the real god, while you are the one deluded by fake demons. Repent from your wickedness and worship my god instead!" Do you see why the mere assertion of your own correctness, absent any reason which differentiates it from other similar assertions, is to put it gently, a less-than-stellar argument in favor of your position? Once again, it suffers from the over-breadth problem asserted earlier about your previous argument.
Naked assertion of your own truth, without any principled, non-circular foundation that differentiates you from these others, is pretty worthless as evidence, and it only shores up my previous point about the logical problem you have argued yourself into: that you must either admit the existence of other gods, or admit that nobody has a reason to believe in yours.
_________________
"Ne mea dona tibi studio disposta fideli,
Intellecta prius quam sint, contempta reliquas."
-Lucretius, De rerum natura
("...that my gifts here set forth for you with faithful solicitude, may not by you be contempuously discarded before they have been understood.")
"Mes amis, si j'avance, suivez-moi! Si je recule, tuez-moi! Si je meurs, vengez-moi!" --Henri de la Rochejaquelein |
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josephpalazzo
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | science is selling it all goes back down the tree to one single organism. I don't buy it, they haven't proven it, the evidence doesn't exist and it's nothing but a theory.
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So is gravity just a theory. But why can we build airplanes that fly?
So is quantum mechanics just a theory, but how does the picture form on your TV screen?
So is relativity a theory, but why do we use it when we buil the LHC?
And so is evolution a theory, but why do we use it to make antibiotics?
| Missionary wrote: |
Is Jesus the Christ?
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There is no evidence of the existence of Jesus. See http://www.atheistforums.com/jesus-man-or-legend-official-debate-thread-t5008.html |
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Hugga_Bear
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Joined: 01 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Its just a theory. LMAO.
Look up the definition of theory.
Then look up replicators (not the SG ones, the protein replicators thought to be the origin of life) and you'll see it's not that hard to believe...
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"A hero need not be undefeated, merely undaunted." |
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moog
Forum Plebian
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Location: England
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | moog wrote: |
The weather is massively more complex, which is why there is error in predicting it.
Spectral analysis is incredibly simple, easily repeatable and predictable.
Stop lying and intentionally trying to deceive Missionary. |
More complex than say a white dwarf? What is the sun made of? |
Our Sun?
Mostly Hydrogen. Some Helium.
White dwarfs are not detectable directly as they are tiny and cold.
They are usually detected when they are in binary systems with other stars. |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Missionary wrote: | | It is a fact that this world is under the dominion of the adversary and his fallen angels. |
How is it a fact?
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Nos laetus edo qui votum opprimo nobis.
LakeGeorgeMan actually think's I'm Socrates.
Visit my wife's art gallery |
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baddogma
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | It is a fact that this world is under the dominion of the adversary and his fallen angels. |
How is it a fact? |
Miss, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the ass.
_________________
Join http://www.sefora.org/
Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar....
smartmarzipan: "Debating fundies is like playing chess with pigeons. They knock over all the pieces, shit all over the board, and then fly back to the roost to declare victory." |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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its a fact that Miss is delusional:
* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
he is 100% certain, and cannot be dissuaded, that invisible demons are in dominion over the Earth.
this person needs help.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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ApostateLois
Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He does and He has. You choose by free will to ignore, reject and explain away. Such is the case of the vast majority. |
Obviously, he hasn't, or else I WOULD believe. See, that's what you don't understand. If God exists, then he knows what kind of evidence I need in order to believe in him. It is not my problem if he refuses to provide it. Maybe he doesn't want me to believe in him, or doesn't care if anyone believes in him, or doesn't exist.
| Quote: | | On your yardstick, I agree man doesn't have a use for it. God uses it when the day comes. You don't have to believe in God, His yardstick, or eternity for them to be true. I'm only suggesting that man has been wrong about his scientific opinions and calculations. Therefore, if he is indeed fallible, then don't follow him off a cliff. |
If you are fallible, then everything you believe about God could very well be wrong, and you're following a bunch of Christians off a cliff who also are fallible and wrong. When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch, remember?
| Quote: | | I only wish you could no how arrogant I am not, Moloth. My knowledge of God is not based on the results of measurements, experiments, and lab data. |
Exactly. It is based on faith, which is really just wishful thinking. If you had knowledge of God, you wouldn't need faith.
| Quote: | | I don't buy it, they haven't proven it, the evidence doesn't exist and it's nothing but a theory. |
Do you even KNOW what a scientific theory is? Did you know that gravity is a THEORY? Yes, the theory of gravity, perhaps you've heard of it. I will leave it up to you to look up "theory" in a dictionary and find out exactly how it applies to science. I know that's difficult, but sometimes you have to do your homework without mommy's help.
_________________
Kryten: Don't you believe that God exists in all things? Aren't you a Pantheist?
Lister: Yeah, I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils. I'm not a Fryingpantheist. |
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josephpalazzo
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: | | Jason_Harvestdancer wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | | It is a fact that this world is under the dominion of the adversary and his fallen angels. |
How is it a fact? |
Miss, you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the ass. |
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Missionary
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| WashMDJD wrote: | | It's a good thing there's no reason to think that your God exists - if it did, this world would be a pretty nightmarish and uncivilized place to live. |
Then the world is fine in your eyes?
| WashMDJD wrote: | | Either you know of their truth through the observed knowledge, which according to you we can't rely on, or you know about them through revealed knowledge - the source of which necessitates a circular argument on your part. |
From your view. I get that. How could one possibly present an argument that knowledge had been revealed and expect to convince another? Only the weak or the gullible would be persuaded. Now, that has been done in the past and will probably happen again. People are swindled every day, mostly for financial gain and completely unrelated to religions. But it happens in religion as well. Scientology is an example of both. However, if someone claims to have had a revelation of "God" and his claim is that this being may in fact contact you? Then there's really nothing to argue. It's just a matter of whether this revelation is made to you. Then it's not about one person convincing another but rather one person that an event is taking place and that other person may experience it.
| WashMDJD wrote: | There's no escaping the logic the way you're arguing it. Either we admit your God and every other god ever made up, or you admit that we have no reason to believe in your God or any other. Which way would you like to have it?
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"We" shall admit nothing other than you asserted several proofs which you then proceeded to hop-scotch and pole vault over to land on your naked accusation. *shrug* Why would you even go to the trouble of setting up hoops to jump through if you were going to run around them and scream into the microphone? |
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Missionary
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Local time: 2:56 PM
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Missionary wrote: | science is selling it all goes back down the tree to one single organism. I don't buy it, they haven't proven it, the evidence doesn't exist and it's nothing but a theory.
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So is gravity just a theory. But why can we build airplanes that fly?
So is quantum mechanics just a theory, but how does the picture form on your TV screen?
So is relativity a theory, but why do we use it when we buil the LHC?
And so is evolution a theory, but why do we use it to make antibiotics?
| Missionary wrote: |
Is Jesus the Christ?
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There is no evidence of the existence of Jesus. See http://www.atheistforums.com/jesus-man-or-legend-official-debate-thread-t5008.html |
So, you're saying that SINCE some theories are true, THEN all theories are true? |
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