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Obermeister
Forum Plebian
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveInSF wrote: |
Who cares if the mother wasn't a believer? By her own admission, she converted to Christianity when the child was four. That gives the child two years of indoctrination before she picks up a brush and five years before she painted the same version of Jesus that we have seen in the west for centuries.
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Excellent point...I didn't quite pick up that fact from the video on the timeline...Need to watch it again. |
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ManicParroT
Royal Citizen
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
The burden of proof this time is on all of you who claim that the mother wasn't atheist and that the child was exposed to christianity in her surroundings to the point that it influenced her. You are all claiming to know better than the individuals what they experienced. That falls into supernatural or at least mind reading and thus extraordinary claims demand evidence from all of
you. |
OK.
Two essential claims you want people to support.
Claim #1: Her mother was not an atheist (ever), but is a Christian who is lying about her past.
Personally, I could quite easily believe her mother was an atheist who converted after seeing her child do amazing paintings. Who cares? The fact that the mother slid out of her atheism just means she wasn't a very rational, critical thinking atheist. Doesn't tell us anything more than that.
Claim #2:
The child was exposed to Christianity in her surroundings to the point that it influenced her.
Hard to prove one way or the other, but I think we can argue that this is highly likely. Look, the pictures she's drawing are good (for someone her age particularly) but they definitely look quite similar to and derivate of Watchtower art and similar stuff. The depiction of Jesus with brown hair, a moustache and beard, and the blue/gree eyes is a well worn image. Plenty of pictures depicting Jesus like this out there. ('S called "The Prince of Peace") I would argue that the picture is so derivative it is CLEAR she drew on similar images for inspiration.
FURTHERMORE, she calls Jesus "Prince of Peace", which is a well worn Christian phrase. Which indicates that by that age, she'd definitely had significant amounts of Christian influence. So I think the skeptics are on very strong ground here.
Look, the simple fact is that her drawings and poetry don't prove anything whatsoever. There's no miracle here, since everything can be easily explained by natural laws and what we know about the way people work. If she could set fire to things by looking at them, I'd be the first on board (provided, of course, this was shown by a good peer reviewed series of experiments, and performed under laboratory conditions).
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ChrissyFos
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Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | The key here is 4 years old. Your brother is old enough to have been exposed outside the home as well as possible shows. |
How is her being four years old the key? I didn't read anything that said she was completely sheltered from other people, so it is possible that she saw a picture of Jesus somewhere or overheard someone else discussing heaven.
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aileron
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| As I watched the video, I noticed something right away... The mother seemed to be from Eastern Europe. "Used to be an atheist" does not mean the same thing in Eastern Europe as it does in other places. The governments of Eastern Europe oppressed the practice of religion, so atheism was more often a matter of practical necessity and peer pressure rather than an individualized, reasoned choice. In fact, just as our society has many nominal Christians, Eastern Europe had many nominal atheists – people who just go with the flow. Eastern European nations now have some of the highest scores for religiosity in surveys of how people rate the importance of religion in their lives. It is plausible that this woman’s awakening to Christianity profoundly influenced her daughter rather than vice versa. It is even possible that the woman does not realize that she had such a profound influence on her daughter, so she need not be lying to claim that it was her daughter who influenced her. |
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Sal1981
Do you hear me now?
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrissyFos wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Otherwise this girl is seeing something that the average person isn't seeing and that's why there will always be spirituality if not religions. |
The girl can paint. How exactly does that translate into her being able to see heaven or god? |
Bingo. I don't see how they're compatible. You could, theoretically be a drooling monkey yet still fart out symposiums.
The ability to draw and theistic belief are not contingent. There are plenty of child prodigies to go around, and methinks she just happens to have a profound ability to draw. Chess savants, anyone?
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Sal1981
Do you hear me now?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ManicParroT wrote: | | There's no miracle here, since everything can be easily explained by natural laws and what we know about the way people work. If she could set fire to things by looking at them, I'd be the first on board (provided, of course, this was shown by a good peer reviewed series of experiments, and performed under laboratory conditions). |
LOL, the Randi within.
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"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman
"Why not just make your null hypothesis be that..." - Philosophos |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all of the comments but most of you are missing my challenge.
I asked in an earlier post if all here are used to lying that you cannot take another's word for their own autobiography? While I have lied in my lifetime it has been seldom and not when it comes to history of myself or my family.
Sooo, I have no choice but to give this family the benefit of the doubt over all of you. I could be completely wrong but nobody has given me any evidence to even remotely convince me that you are right and she is lying. I spent two hours reading over a hundred links and nada.
You claim you know them better than they themselves.
That is called "mind reading" and none of you believe that. So that is what I have been challenging over and over and over is your ability to mind read and all of you have been ignoring it.
You have no evidence of any kind anywhere about this family being and doing any different than their website shows.
My challenge has never been that she has or hasn't contacted god.
My challenge is to each of you who claim to know the inside of her mind better than she or her mother.
To the person who asked if children can be trusted, my answer is yes. It is amazing how children have no need to lie when they aren't lied to and are trusted and loved and guided instead of being forced to live by rules. Is this child one of them? I don't know. I do know that I was and my children were. |
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aileron
Forum Leader
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | Thanks for all of the comments but most of you are missing my challenge.
I asked in an earlier post if all here are used to lying that you cannot take another's word for their own autobiography? While I have lied in my lifetime it has been seldom and not when it comes to history of myself or my family.
Sooo, I have no choice but to give this family the benefit of the doubt over all of you. I could be completely wrong but nobody has given me any evidence to even remotely convince me that you are right and she is lying. I spent two hours reading over a hundred links and nada.
You claim you know them better than they themselves.
That is called "mind reading" and none of you believe that. So that is what I have been challenging over and over and over is your ability to mind read and all of you have been ignoring it.
You have no evidence of any kind anywhere about this family being and doing any different than their website shows.
My challenge has never been that she has or hasn't contacted god.
My challenge is to each of you who claim to know the inside of her mind better than she or her mother.
To the person who asked if children can be trusted, my answer is yes. It is amazing how children have no need to lie when they aren't lied to and are trusted and loved and guided instead of being forced to live by rules. Is this child one of them? I don't know. I do know that I was and my children were. |
Why do you assume that there are only two choices, they're lying or they should be believed? Can you think of other possibilities? |
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ChrissyFos
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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ShaSha,
I've seen a few reasonable explanations as to where she might have gotten the idea or mental picture of Jesus and heaven, but no one here has claimed to know exactly what is going on in her head. So, she can paint a pattern. What does that mean and how does it correlate with your belief that god and heaven exist? I can draw and paint things from my dreams, too, but that doesn't mean that what I'm seeing is divinely inspired.
This all boils down to what a person is willing to believe. You seem to believe in the possibility that god reveals itself to humans through visions and dreams. I don't believe that the god she speaks of even exists, so obviously I'm very skeptical when it comes to these sort of claims. While I am not completely closed to the existence of a god, this idea of a personal, communicating god is 100% bullshit in my book.
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Mr_C
Reckoner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | C'mon...it' just common sense.  |
I believe it is common sense that common sense is not part of the scientific proof  |
No, common sense is what brings us to logical conclusions (called hypotheses) which can be tested scientifically.
Magical thinking is not part of the scientific method. Coincidence? 
Which makes more sense?
1)God inspired a 10 year old to paint a picture of a caucasian, green-eyed man called "Jesus", who may or may not have actually existed but if he did, (a)Was born of a virgin which is impossible, (b)Performed miracles which are impossible, and (c)Died and rose from the dead only to ascend bodily to "Heaven" which is impossible, or:
2)A young girl had a concept of a religious icon and painted it.
Occam's Razor takes care of this rather nicely, if you're having trouble deciding.
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Summary: Just play nice, mmkay? |
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SteveInSF
Forum Plebian
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sasha,
I am not claiming that the mother is lying but I am certainly claiming that she is wrong. If she says she was an atheist before her daughter had 'visions' then fine.
Your challenge is silly. This is not about a woman lying (or not) about her past beliefs but it is more about her current belief that the creator of the universe is communicating with her child.
You have not answered a number of questions:
Do you believe this girl is recieving visions based on her mother's testimony?
Is a parent's testimony to a special ability of their child enough evidence for you to believe such a tremendous claim?
If so, would you believe any mother's testimony of any claim, such as a child that can fly through the air or set objects on fire with her mind?
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:25 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Obermeister wrote: | | Well, I'd LOVE to see the well respecteded skeptics investigate this. Actually, I was kind of hoping that maybe they already had and that it would come up on this message board and someone would provide a useful link. |
Why would skeptics research this? There's no evidence to research, just an empty claim.
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | Thanks for all of the comments but most of you are missing my challenge.
I asked in an earlier post if all here are used to lying that you cannot take another's word for their own autobiography? While I have lied in my lifetime it has been seldom and not when it comes to history of myself or my family.
Sooo, I have no choice but to give this family the benefit of the doubt over all of you. I could be completely wrong but nobody has given me any evidence to even remotely convince me that you are right and she is lying. I spent two hours reading over a hundred links and nada.
You claim you know them better than they themselves.
That is called "mind reading" and none of you believe that. So that is what I have been challenging over and over and over is your ability to mind read and all of you have been ignoring it.
You have no evidence of any kind anywhere about this family being and doing any different than their website shows.
My challenge has never been that she has or hasn't contacted god.
My challenge is to each of you who claim to know the inside of her mind better than she or her mother.
To the person who asked if children can be trusted, my answer is yes. It is amazing how children have no need to lie when they aren't lied to and are trusted and loved and guided instead of being forced to live by rules. Is this child one of them? I don't know. I do know that I was and my children were. |
ShaSha, dear, sweetheart, beloved. I still love you, even though you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster. 
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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Sal1981
Do you hear me now?
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| aileron wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | Thanks for all of the comments but most of you are missing my challenge.
... |
Why do you assume that there are only two choices, they're lying or they should be believed? Can you think of other possibilities? |
I can think of a 3rd: relusion.
_________________
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman
"Why not just make your null hypothesis be that..." - Philosophos |
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AiiA
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2542
Local time: 10:25 PM
Location: Inside your head
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | I asked in an earlier post if all here are used to lying that you cannot take another's word for their own autobiography? |
Yes I am convinced that people lie habitually (even to themselves) when it comes to beliefs in supernatural/paranormal concepts. The main theme of the story is that the girl is being contacted by a god. There is no evidence of a god; however, people having hallucinations are documented.
| Quote: | Sooo, I have no choice but to give this family the benefit of the doubt over all of you. I could be completely wrong but nobody has given me any evidence to even remotely convince me that you are right and she is lying. I spent two hours reading over a hundred links and nada.
You claim you know them better than they themselves.
That is called "mind reading" and none of you believe that. So that is what I have been challenging over and over and over is your ability to mind read and all of you have been ignoring it.
You have no evidence of any kind anywhere about this family being and doing any different than their website shows.
My challenge has never been that she has or hasn't contacted god.
My challenge is to each of you who claim to know the inside of her mind better than she or her mother. |
You seem to be conversing the burden of proof; the family has the burden of proof, not those of us who do not believe the story. |
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