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SteveInSF
Forum Plebian
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Local time: 1:00 PM
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 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
She was drawing at 4 but that isn't important. It was because of the visions at age 4 that her mother converted or started believing in god. That is why I keep bringing up that age because that is the only age that is relevant. |
That age is very relevant. You are saying a four year old has 'visions' (my imaginary friend at that age was named Chucky) and her mother then converts. Now, given that, do you think the mother had NO influence on her child? At such an impressionable age, her mother had ALL the influence on her daughter. So, we have a four year old child being influenced by her newly 'born again' mother because of something the child had said. No wonder the girl is painting pictures of a green-eyed Jesus five years later. Its all about the mother, impressing her religious beliefs on her very impressionable daughter at a young age. This has nothing to do with any visions. Kids have healthy imaginations especially when fostered by a deluded parent. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:00 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | No, the issue is where is the evidence most likely to be found. It is most likely to be found investigating. Your opinions of what is most likely true isn't evidence and definitely isn't the way to start an investigation if you were going to try to be scientific about it. |
If you simply want their explanation to be true, then that's up to you to buy it. However, they have not provided ample evidence to support their claim. ESPECIALLY when so many such stories have been disproven in the past and NONE have been proven.
I decline the burden of proof, as it is fallacious. It is not up to me to disprove a claim, it is up to them to prove it.
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Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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rickcopeland648
The Phantom Teabagger
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3021
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I think Thomas "The Painter of Urine" Kinkade has a new rivial...
Did anybody else notice her painting of Jebus looks like Kenny Loggins?
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Can't... fight... any... longer... must.. help.. bunny.. achieve.. global.. domination.. All.. hail... bunny...
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monkeybyte
Forum Master
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 3513
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Location: At E's place for tea.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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A "Divine Influence" would expose her to more than Watchtower illustrations and sappy new age art.
The least a God can do is introduce the kid to the classics, if not divine aesthetics.
Herve Villechaize (Tatoo) was an artistic child prodigy. So was Picasso. To my knowledge, neither of 'em claimed any supernatural influence on their work.
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"Setting people on fire is wrong." -Todd "Squee" Casil. |
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Gtrsnax
Forum Plebian
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 110
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Location: Yorktown Va
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| rickcopeland648 wrote: | | Did anybody else notice her painting of Jebus looks like Kenny Loggins? |
hehe, a little Kenny Loggins, a little Neil Diamond |
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Uncertainty
Forum Master
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 3414
Local time: 10:00 PM
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Uncertainty wrote: | | I'm pretty sure it's impossible to live in America without being exposed to Christianity at all. My parents never really talked about religion at all and I was still exposed to it. It's not like your parents are the only people you ever see. You don't have to be an expert of a religion to switch to it. |
Remember, this is age 4. Some of my children were exposed to some masses during infancy and early toddler but most were not exposed to any religious pictures or thought processes prior to active school. So this child could have fit that category easily. |
So? You said she wasn't exposed to christianity at all, if she was exposed to anything at all that counts. You can't make it sound like she lived in the middle of no where and never heard of Christianity and then suddenly converted at the age of 4. You don't need to see a picture to be exposed to it, and she wouldn't be much of a child prodigy if she needed to before she painted. Plus most churchs have art inside and outside anyway. |
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 3808
Local time: 1:00 PM
Location: Cin City, OH!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | 
Jesus the Missing Years,
age 10
BWAH!!
Yeah, that's some *snicker* inspired shit right there. |
Reggie should see if he can get permission to use it for an updated version of "Is Heaven the Sky?" |
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Ophis
Royal Citizen
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 470
Local time: 4:00 AM
Location: Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: |
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I can't believe ShaSha is falling for this. What if some 4 year old kid said she'd seen Santa Claus? Would you just say, there's no evidence of lying, so fuck it, I'm gonna believe in Santa? Do you believe all those alien abduction stories and Elvis sightings too?
It's not even like the paintings are particularly inspired. Some new agey crap and a skinny white Jesus. I guess Nazareth must be in California, because this stuff sure don't look Middle Eastern. The God in Star Trek V was more convincing. |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6674
Local time: 4:00 AM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Find an atheist artist who starts at a very young age to paint quite well without any teaching |
Must the skill absolutely be painting?
Professor Stephen Hawkins could just as easily suit Oprahs sensationalism. Johan Cruijff, one of the greatest scoccerplayers ever, isn't religious. Richard Dawkins, not religious. These are all people who, even if it's just figuratively, classify as exceptionally gifted.
I excelled at english as a kid. Sure I could make up some story, in which that foreign language becomes a magical power bestowed upon me for a higher purpose. But considering how I don't exactly get you to change your mind that often, if ever at all, I do believe that superpower bit needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But let's say, that as a ten year old kid, I had started using my english skills to "spread the Gospel (tm)"
Shit. Then there could've been millions of Christians worldwide marveling at this young dutch lad's exceptional english. Now it's a huge deal and a miracle, because I tell these people what they want to hear.
How about those millions of people who apply their skill and energy for our sake in general and their own in particular. What would they be evidence of?
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~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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ShaSha
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Uncertainty wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Uncertainty wrote: | | I'm pretty sure it's impossible to live in America without being exposed to Christianity at all. My parents never really talked about religion at all and I was still exposed to it. It's not like your parents are the only people you ever see. You don't have to be an expert of a religion to switch to it. |
Remember, this is age 4. Some of my children were exposed to some masses during infancy and early toddler but most were not exposed to any religious pictures or thought processes prior to active school. So this child could have fit that category easily. |
So? You said she wasn't exposed to christianity at all, if she was exposed to anything at all that counts. You can't make it sound like she lived in the middle of no where and never heard of Christianity and then suddenly converted at the age of 4. You don't need to see a picture to be exposed to it, and she wouldn't be much of a child prodigy if she needed to before she painted. Plus most churchs have art inside and outside anyway. |
You don't know and I don't know that she was exposed to any of it. I used my kids as an example because if they pulled it out of their minds two or three years later, that alone would be unusual and have me paying attention to it. They didn't. They didn't know who Jesus was until they were exposed to peers in grade school. Even then it went through one ear and out the other. Yet they were exposed to it from birth to about two years of age, those that I took to mass.
The burden of proof this time is on all of you who claim that the mother wasn't atheist and that the child was exposed to christianity in her surroundings to the point that it influenced her. You are all claiming to know better than the individuals what they experienced. That falls into supernatural or at least mind reading and thus extraordinary claims demand evidence from all of
you.
This is is the only reply I am giving because all other posts have avoided giving evidence that the mother was lying and have gotten away from the only issue I care about. This isn't about whether she is or isn't a good painter. It isn't about whether you like her art. You can all hide behind all kinds of discussions. I'm looking only for one thing and that is evidence of your abilities to mind read. Once you do that, you should apply for Randi's big bucks.
It's ok if a atheist becomes a believer  There's probably at least one a day and the reverse is also more than likely true  |
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Ophis
Royal Citizen
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 470
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Location: Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | The burden of proof this time is on all of you who claim that the mother wasn't atheist and that the child was exposed to christianity in her surroundings to the point that it influenced her. You are all claiming to know better than the individuals what they experienced. |
No, the burden of proof is on the person who thinks skinny white Jesus is communicating with people. Otherwise, if you want to be consistent, you'll have to start believing all those Elvis sightings. |
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GeorgeB
Visitor
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Go white boy go white boy go!!
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SteveInSF
Forum Plebian
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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To the point that Ophis has made, the burden of proof is absolutely on the one making the bold assertion that her child is soooo special that the creator of the universe is sending her 'visions'.
Who cares if the mother wasn't a believer? By her own admission, she converted to Christianity when the child was four. That gives the child two years of indoctrination before she picks up a brush and five years before she painted the same version of Jesus that we have seen in the west for centuries.
Sasha, do you honestly believe anything a mother says about her child? What if she said that the child flies? Would the burden of proof still be on the people that do not believe that is possible? |
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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6674
Local time: 4:00 AM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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No no no. Don't you see. People who make religiously -or otherwise supernaturally stemmed claims should be given an unfair advantage. Rickcopeland being considered the great goldpooper, denied, the little girl being preceived an antenna of the ultimate magical superghost, accepted. Rick should get with the program and start claiming to fart the words of angels.
_________________
~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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Obermeister
Forum Plebian
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 283
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
Then get with it and investigate or get the the well respected skeptics to investigate. You've said nothing new here. You have no evidence and can only offer opinion. That they are making money from her art has nothing to do with her mother being an atheist which is where I am focused on the most since that is what can be proved the easiest with investigations.
Talent is talent and that family has every right to live better as a result of it just as anybody with any sense at all would do. Her mother had part of writing the book and has every right to receive partial royalties.
As far as god wanting to convince you, when did this become about you? Who says god wants to convince you? Maybe god likes you just fine as an atheist? Nobody is even saying that god wanted her mother to become a believer. |
Well, I'd LOVE to see the well respecteded skeptics investigate this. Actually, I was kind of hoping that maybe they already had and that it would come up on this message board and someone would provide a useful link. I guess, since nothings really turned up here, I'm going to have to email James Randi myself. I don't really have the time/resources/connections/experience to do this myself, I'm just a humble engineer.
The only evidence that I have is what is shown in the video & her website, which is a pile of shameless self promotion and exploitation of her talents. While I don't have any problem with that, I DO have a problem with guillible people being exploited by this supposed "miracle". Where you see the hand of god, I see a clever businesswoman. Maybe a few steps above that lady that Penn & Teller exposed for selling the "tears" of the mary statue next to her comatose daughter's bed on the internet, only that it turns out that Mary's "tears" are vegetable oil... I don't have PROOF, but you don't exactly have PROOF that anyone, much less this girl, actually talks to god. Then there is the evidence of her paintings, which are clearly exactly what culturally we would expect but in reality, if jesus did exist, he was not a white d00d. You would think someone who's "seen heaven" would at least know that. So I do have more than just "opinion". But I'd like to see a slam-dunk debunking of yet another charlatan, sure.
As for making this about me, I may have jumped forward a bit. Usually xtians argue that "so ppl can know god" is why he performs "miracles" sometimes. All I'm saying is that god's miracles, at least in modern times, SUCK. Now THAT part is just my opinion, sure. Maybe god only wants to convince the gullible. If he weren't fictional himself of course. |
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