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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | C'mon...it' just common sense.  |
I believe it is common sense that common sense is not part of the scientific proof  |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveInSF wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | Give me evidence not speculation! |
| ShaSha wrote: | | What do you mean by a Glenn Beck story?. |
That voice in the background of the video is not God. It's Glenn Beck. He has a radio show and a tv show on CNN and he is a hack. And you are one to ask for evidence. You believe this girl is recieving 'spiritual visions'? Are colorful paintings evidence of that?
I love it when people who believe in the supernatural ask for evidence. I am sure if I meditate hard enough I too will see evidence of the supernatural realm. |
We aren't talking about the video. We are discussing what went on when she was 4 years old and whether or not her mother became a believer from being an atheist. Nobody can know what her experiences were within other than the girl herself. So I neither believe nor disbelieve the girl. I do believe the mother when she says she was an atheist but was impressed by continual expressions of her child that had nothing to do with colorful paintings but rather stories and descriptions. The paintings came later and according to the artist were inspired by what she heard and saw.
As far as my asking for evidence, most rational people agree that everybody is skeptical about something. It is because I have always been a questioner that I became a believer by choice and experience and not because of past brainwashing.
Don't be too concerned about what I see or hear. Worry about yourself. Anybody that thinks our conversation has been about the video has more problems than a young girl who paints successfully.  |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:53 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | This little girl most likely hasn't spent every minute of life around mom. Preschool? Day care? Kindergarten? Babysitters? All are possible and even likely opportunities for someone to expose this child to christianity. |
| ShaSha wrote: | Give me evidence not speculation! Until then I will take their word over your words because they were there  |
And Christians NEVER lie or exaggerate.  
_________________
Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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SteveInSF
Forum Plebian
Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 195
Local time: 1:53 PM
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha, I don't know why you keep bringing up the age of 4. The story clearly states that she didn't start painting till the age of 6. They said she had 'visions' at the age of 4, the same age when many of us have imaginary friends. This is simply a nice little story (for believers) about a talented little girl who, like every little girl, has been influenced by the adults around her. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | CET wrote: | | This little girl most likely hasn't spent every minute of life around mom. Preschool? Day care? Kindergarten? Babysitters? All are possible and even likely opportunities for someone to expose this child to christianity. |
| ShaSha wrote: | | Give me evidence not speculation! Until then I will take their word over your words because they were there |
And Christians NEVER lie or exaggerate. |
We aren't speaking of any Christian here. We are speaking of specific people. Where is the evidence that this girl and her mother are lying? Where is the evidence that she is just christian?
I haven't found anything pointing to any of the trustworthy skeptic sites that show they have evidence that there is lying or fraud here. Until then your doubting that the mother was a true atheist makes you look worried. It's like the christians who believe no true christian can deconvert. You and I know different. Well, I also know that atheists, true and hard, do converta also. I could care less, I like people not their religion. |
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Obermeister
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 283
Local time: 1:53 PM
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I never get tired of arguing this stuff....
The girl and her family is clearly derviing economic benefit from this stuff. I don't care how much they are donating, they are still obviously living much better than they used to, by their own admission (have you seen her studio??)
It's interesting how easily people can look at a talent like this and just swallow a supernatural explanation. A sucker is born every minute I guess.
I take it as a given this girl is not really communicating with god. Clearly she's painting exactly what her audience (customers. cough cough) wants to see. (One aryan Jeebus coming up!).
What I AM curious about is how much of an active plot is going on. Maybe her mom saw this talent and figured out a way to make some $$$ off her daughter. I mean, the story is just flat out ridiculous. I'd be willing to bet a little investigative journalism could probably blow the lid off of that goofy story too.
I still say that if god really wanted to convince me, why not give her the power to raise the dead or something? I'd like to see that. It's only a 5th level spell after all. I'm sure the creator of the universe could come up with that one. I'm not even asking for a heal spell to reattach limbs....after all that's sixth level. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:53 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't found evidence of divine influence. I've given several plausible explanations for other forms of influence. My explanations have been observed and documented before, while the god explanation has not. Therefore, my explanations are far more plausible.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveInSF wrote: | | ShaSha, I don't know why you keep bringing up the age of 4. The story clearly states that she didn't start painting till the age of 6. They said she had 'visions' at the age of 4, the same age when many of us have imaginary friends. This is simply a nice little story (for believers) about a talented little girl who, like every little girl, has been influenced by the adults around her. |
She was drawing at 4 but that isn't important. It was because of the visions at age 4 that her mother converted or started believing in god. That is why I keep bringing up that age because that is the only age that is relevant. Have you done any reading beyond the video? Where is your evidence that this a is just a nice little story? I haven't seen anything. Your opinion means diddly and so does mine. But since I haven't found any evidence to the contrary after reading two hours of links from google, I lean towards her mother telling the truth and you making up the story about it just being a nice little story. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:53 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Obermeister wrote: | | Maybe her mom saw this talent and figured out a way to make some $$$ off her daughter. I mean, the story is just flat out ridiculous. |
I hadn't thought of that, but that is a sure fire audience who would certainly buy such things AND buy the "divine inspiration" story. I'm sure this news story was the greatest marketing this girl's had yet. Every word of it says EXACTLY what believers WANT to hear.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | I haven't found evidence of divine influence. I've given several plausible explanations for other forms of influence. My explanations have been observed and documented before, while the god explanation has not. Therefore, my explanations are far more plausible. |
The issue here is not your past wins or even whether there is divine influence. The issue here is your denial of her being an atheist without any evidence. I'm open to it, just give me something other than your opinion. Your certificate in mind reading is not considered evidence either |
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AiiA
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 2542
Local time: 10:53 PM
Location: Inside your head
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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She might have mild Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
Last edited by AiiA on Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:53 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | She was drawing at 4 but that isn't important. It was because of the visions at age 4 that her mother converted or started believing in god. That is why I keep bringing up that age because that is the only age that is relevant. Have you done any reading beyond the video? Where is your evidence that this a is just a nice little story? I haven't seen anything. Your opinion means diddly and so does mine. But since I haven't found any evidence to the contrary after reading two hours of links from google, I lean towards her mother telling the truth and you making up the story about it just being a nice little story. |
What's more likely? God inspiration (which we have no documentation ever happening in the past) or adult influence (which we have TONS of documentation of such things happening in the past). Something fantastic that's never happened, or something that happens every day in everyone's life.
The god explanation have more glitter, but not everything that glitters is gold.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12846
Local time: 7:53 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | CET wrote: | | I haven't found evidence of divine influence. I've given several plausible explanations for other forms of influence. My explanations have been observed and documented before, while the god explanation has not. Therefore, my explanations are far more plausible. |
The issue here is not your past wins or even whether there is divine influence. The issue here is your denial of her being an atheist without any evidence. I'm open to it, just give me something other than your opinion. Your certificate in mind reading is not considered evidence either |
The issue is a matter of what's more likely: inspiration by god, or influence from adults. One has no documentation as ever happening, the other happens to children every minute of every day. In a game of chance, one is close to a 1:1 bet, while the other is about a 1 gazillion:1 bet.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Obermeister wrote: |
What I AM curious about is how much of an active plot is going on. Maybe her mom saw this talent and figured out a way to make some $$$ off her daughter. I mean, the story is just flat out ridiculous. I'd be willing to bet a little investigative journalism could probably blow the lid off of that goofy story too.
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Then get with it and investigate or get the the well respected skeptics to investigate. You've said nothing new here. You have no evidence and can only offer opinion. That they are making money from her art has nothing to do with her mother being an atheist which is where I am focused on the most since that is what can be proved the easiest with investigations.
Talent is talent and that family has every right to live better as a result of it just as anybody with any sense at all would do. Her mother had part of writing the book and has every right to receive partial royalties.
As far as god wanting to convince you, when did this become about you? Who says god wants to convince you? Maybe god likes you just fine as an atheist? Nobody is even saying that god wanted her mother to become a believer. |
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ShaSha
Forum Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 4986
Local time: 9:53 PM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | CET wrote: | | I haven't found evidence of divine influence. I've given several plausible explanations for other forms of influence. My explanations have been observed and documented before, while the god explanation has not. Therefore, my explanations are far more plausible. |
The issue here is not your past wins or even whether there is divine influence. The issue here is your denial of her being an atheist without any evidence. I'm open to it, just give me something other than your opinion. Your certificate in mind reading is not considered evidence either |
The issue is a matter of what's more likely: inspiration by god, or influence from adults. One has no documentation as ever happening, the other happens to children every minute of every day. In a game of chance, one is close to a 1:1 bet, while the other is about a 1 gazillion:1 bet. |
No, the issue is where is the evidence most likely to be found. It is most likely to be found investigating. Your opinions of what is most likely true isn't evidence and definitely isn't the way to start an investigation if you were going to try to be scientific about it. |
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