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AisA
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Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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Local time: 9:31 PM
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Free Will and sundry |
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| I was raised to believe that god knows all; past, present and future. When I confronted my learned scholars with "Then how can we have a free will?" the best answer they could come up with was "Well, it's a mystery of faith!" Sorry people. You can't have it both ways. If this god knew [knows] the future then there can be no free will nor a hell, for that matter, if this god is, as you preach, all loving and merciful. |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Precisely. My Mormon friend says "God knows everything including the future he just doesnt mess with it cuz It's a test for us!"
"What's the point of the test if He knows where we're going anyway?"
"It's for us stupid!"
"You didn't answer the question."
"I did too!"
Sigh. Oh and welcome!
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown
Last edited by Raskolnikov on Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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aitm
using the thinker thingy
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: Melbourne, Fl
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome AisA, as you stroll through the various forums here you will find several that are already quite helpful in the topic you posted. I hope you enjoy yourself,, look our though, the natives bite.
_________________
Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
Knowledge: The cure for religion. |
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stickhorse
Antichrist
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
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http://myspace.com/stickhorse |
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Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1707
Local time: 7:31 PM
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
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I still can't find a simple way to explain it to them. I like Munky's Journal one but that is the only one I know.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 8455
Local time: 11:31 AM
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
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Well worded!
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Join http://www.sefora.org/
Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar.... |
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romans120
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Posts: 1785
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Location: mid-west
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
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Just so I get represented in all these free will threads. Free will in the christian sense is product of a hereticle teaching known as Pelagianism possibly began by Pelagius in the 4th century (he may not have taught the heresy attributed to him) Free will is not even a little bit articulated in scripture. The will is always described as a slave either to sin or to God.
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The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Mr_C
Moderator
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 5920
Local time: 8:31 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
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Just so I get represented in all these free will threads. Free will in the christian sense is product of a hereticle teaching known as Pelagianism possibly began by Pelagius in the 4th century (he may not have taught the heresy attributed to him) Free will is not even a little bit articulated in scripture. The will is always described as a slave either to sin or to God. |
Romans,
How does one discontinue being a slave to sin? |
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romans120
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Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 1785
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Location: mid-west
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_C wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
|
Just so I get represented in all these free will threads. Free will in the christian sense is product of a hereticle teaching known as Pelagianism possibly began by Pelagius in the 4th century (he may not have taught the heresy attributed to him) Free will is not even a little bit articulated in scripture. The will is always described as a slave either to sin or to God. |
Romans,
How does one discontinue being a slave to sin? |
God chooses to redeem some. one cannot discontinue being a slave without first being redeemed.
_________________
The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 7622
Local time: 9:31 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
|
Just so I get represented in all these free will threads. Free will in the christian sense is product of a hereticle teaching known as Pelagianism possibly began by Pelagius in the 4th century (he may not have taught the heresy attributed to him) Free will is not even a little bit articulated in scripture. The will is always described as a slave either to sin or to God. |
Then free yourself by putting an X on sin, and another on God... |
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Mr_C
Moderator
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 5920
Local time: 8:31 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | | romans120 wrote: | | stickhorse wrote: | theists drive me fucking insane with this one!
the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."
i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.
|
Just so I get represented in all these free will threads. Free will in the christian sense is product of a hereticle teaching known as Pelagianism possibly began by Pelagius in the 4th century (he may not have taught the heresy attributed to him) Free will is not even a little bit articulated in scripture. The will is always described as a slave either to sin or to God. |
Romans,
How does one discontinue being a slave to sin? |
God chooses to redeem some. one cannot discontinue being a slave without first being redeemed. |
Dang. I was hoping you would contradict yourself. Okay, Calvinism FTW. |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 21265
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
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Mr_C
Moderator
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 5920
Local time: 8:31 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | but, you have to CHOOSE to be redeemed... but, since you CHOSE something, you weren't a slave to begin with, now were you? |
That's the thing - Romans doesn't believe we have that choice. It's called "total depravity".
Google "Calvinism Tulip" for info on this.
Edit: Good wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
_________________
"If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?"
Carl Sagan
http://www.standupforlyme.org/ |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Local time: 9:31 PM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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Mr_C
Moderator
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 5920
Local time: 8:31 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | oh, i know enough about Calvinism.
i also know that it is a poor example of trying to apply logic to the illogical. |
How do you mean? |
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