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Free Will and sundry
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Moloth
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:30 am Post subject:

i'm so glad we never ran you off, romans. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=- www.Moloth.com Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

romans120
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:44 am Post subject:

stickhorse wrote:

romans wrote:

one other key element of calvinism must be accounted for in you analogy. You are missing a step. The unregenerate puppeteer is sin (slave to sin) the regenerate puppeteer is God (slave to God) Sin is not outside of God's control it is merely permitted. God is passively or permissively the puppeteer of the unregenerate

the whole "slave to sin" thing is simply you leaving yourself some wiggle room. sin is not an entity, sin does not have a will. god is still the puppeteer in either situation.

EDIT*

your definition of sin:

romans wrote:

"falling short of the mark" The mark is perfection or Holiness

saying that someone is a slave to falling short of the mark, and saying that "god permits it" is basically saying that while the salve to god doesn't have free will, the sinner, on the other hand, does.

While I agree sin is not a thing it description of the absence of holiness (like dark is only a description of the absence of light) it does mean that God is actively controlling the regenerate and passively controlling the unregenerate by allowing them to continue to be un-holy.

We are not condemned because of what we do we are condemned because of what we are.

for clarification let me reword the above statement

What we do is a result of what we are. What we are is not a result of what we do. Justification comes from changing what we are. Justification can not come from changing what we do.
_________________
The Resident Theist

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/

romans120
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:50 am Post subject:

Moloth wrote:

i'm so glad we never ran you off, romans. Smile

Thanks it's nice to know some don't think I'm a chronic rash around here.
_________________
The Resident Theist

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/

Moloth
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:52 am Post subject:

romans120 wrote:

Moloth wrote:

i'm so glad we never ran you off, romans. Smile

Thanks it's nice to know some don't think I'm a chronic rash around here.

nope. you're one of the best posters here, in my opinion.

of course, i disagree with your conclusions, but you're damn likable and you have given me every reason to defend you and support your presence here. Smile

it could be argued that we NEED someone like you around here.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-

www.Moloth.com

Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

atheod
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

Mr_C wrote:

atheod wrote:

You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future.

If I know with 100% certainty that X will occur at a specific time, do I know the future? Not technically, I suppose, but practically. If God knows every variable and exactly how they will interact with each other at every given moment in time, he practically knows the future even if the future hasn't "happened" yet.

Correct, a being as powerful and knowledgeable as God could calculate the future exhaustively based on his knowledge of the present and past. However, calculating the future is an act and the Bible makes it clear God has not done this act exhaustively. The Bible says God is all knowing and all powerful, it doesn't say he's all doing.

Quote:

Regarding God and Time:
Where is God, so that He can observe time relative to earth at such a perfect vantage point?
Is He on earth, so that He can observe things in real time?
Or is He in "Heaven", many billions of years away*, so that He only sees things happen as they happened billions of years ago? In which case, isn't God billions of years into our future? Or is it both, so that God is here in real time and billions of years into the future?
WTF?

/me turns into an ignostic

*Heaven must be at least further than our microscopes can view since we haven't seen it yet, right?

The Bible makes it clear there is time in heaven, but It gives no clue where it's supposed to be.

atheod
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

romans120 wrote:

atheod wrote:

baddogma wrote:

atheod wrote:

AisA wrote:

I was raised to believe that god knows all; past, present and future. When I confronted my learned scholars with "Then how can we have a free will?" the best answer they could come up with was "Well, it's a mystery of faith!" Sorry people. You can't have it both ways. If this god knew [knows] the future then there can be no free will nor a hell, for that matter, if this god is, as you preach, all loving and merciful.

I assert there can be no record of the future until it comes to pass. Knowledge is a record of the past. You can't have a record of the future, it doesn't exist yet. It's illogical to claim God can have a record of something that doesn't exist.

Heh, so much for Prophecy asshat!

You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future.

I am not going to get into an argument with a theist here but since no one else is asking I will. 3 questions

1. Is your views based on revelation or is it the only logical way you can conceive of a good God

My views on what? God? My views on God are based on a logical interpretation of the Bible's stories. I consider God good because I trust him and can understand his character's actions. I can see the bad consequences had he done things differently.

Quote:

2. If God can be surprised how does He know that the promises He made to man will be the best move

God doesn't. The Bible's stories show him changing his mind and not doing things he's said he'd do. Our actions effect the future and effect God's actions.

Quote:

3. How can you be confident God will win, especially since there has already been some catastrophic failures according to your worldview

I believe in God. Not just in his existence, I believe in him.

romans120
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

atheod wrote:

romans120 wrote:

atheod wrote:

baddogma wrote:

atheod wrote:

AisA wrote:

Heh, so much for Prophecy asshat!

You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future.

Quote:

2. If God can be surprised how does He know that the promises He made to man will be the best move

God doesn't. The Bible's stories show him changing his mind and not doing things he's said he'd do. Our actions effect the future and effect God's actions.

Quote:

3. How can you be confident God will win, especially since there has already been some catastrophic failures according to your worldview

I believe in God. Not just in his existence, I believe in him.

You actually believe God made promises He couldn't keep?
_________________
The Resident Theist

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/

Mr_C
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

atheod wrote:

Mr_C wrote:

atheod wrote:

You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future.

If He hasn't done the calculation, He isn't all-knowing since there is information that He does not know.

atheod wrote:

Mr_C wrote:

/me turns into an ignostic

*Heaven must be at least further than our microscopes can view since we haven't seen it yet, right?

The Bible makes it clear there is time in heaven, but It gives no clue where it's supposed to be.

That in no way answers my question, but whatever.

josephpalazzo
Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

Mr_C wrote:

atheod wrote:

Mr_C wrote:

atheod wrote:

You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future.

If He hasn't done the calculation, He isn't all-knowing since there is information that He does not know.

atheod wrote:

Mr_C wrote:

/me turns into an ignostic

*Heaven must be at least further than our microscopes can view since we haven't seen it yet, right?

The Bible makes it clear there is time in heaven, but It gives no clue where it's supposed to be.

That in no way answers my question, but whatever.

It's perfectly clear, Mr_C, all you need is faith...

Mr_C
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

josephpalazzo wrote:

It's perfectly clear, Mr_C, all you need is faith...

Evidently I need to turn my brain off if I am to obtain this desired "faith".

josephpalazzo
Illusion Master

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

Mr_C wrote:

josephpalazzo wrote:

It's perfectly clear, Mr_C, all you need is faith...

Evidently I need to turn my brain off if I am to obtain this desired "faith".

You are succumbing to the Dark Force...

jesusismyhero
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 104
Local time: 8:33 PM

Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject:

a quark is the smallest theyve ever split an atom into. scientists took the quark put one in New York and one in Chicago. when they spun one the other spun as well

romans120
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject:

jesusismyhero wrote:

a quark is the smallest theyve ever split an atom into. scientists took the quark put one in New York and one in Chicago. when they spun one the other spun as well

What kind of a container does one transport a "quark" in?
_________________
The Resident Theist

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/

jesusismyhero
Forum Plebian

Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 104
Local time: 8:33 PM

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:01 am Post subject:

good question, i would imagine some sort of glass tray that scientists use?

Moloth
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Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:13 am Post subject:

romans120 wrote:

jesusismyhero wrote:

a quark is the smallest theyve ever split an atom into. scientists took the quark put one in New York and one in Chicago. when they spun one the other spun as well

What kind of a container does one transport a "quark" in?

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-

www.Moloth.com

Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

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