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gnosis
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Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | gnosis wrote: | Heh I'm gonna have to jump in on this one...
I think the robot is the best analogy. Suppose a scientist creates a robot with very advanced AI, and gives it the capacity to kill. He puts weapons on it, and includes no safeguards to ensure that the robot will not kill people. He also gives it the ability to function on its own, to effectively "think".
When the robot goes on a killing rampage, isn't it the scientist who holds responsibility for the robot's actions? |
Okay. Let's take this further. Who's to cry "waaaaa" when the creator destroys the robot? |
Ok I'll take it further. Where are we going again? LOL!  |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | Ok I'll take it further. Where are we going again? LOL! |
Blaming God for destroying those who do not obey Him.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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Mr_C
Reckoner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 6615
Local time: 9:24 PM
Location: Pale Blue Dot
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Mr_C wrote: | | Right. What were we arguing again? |
Uhhh... shit. I guess that moloth's kinda a little whiny girl sometimes. I think that's what we were arguing, anyway... |
Was that it? I thought we were talking about HBA? Fucking Oklahoma...
| Philosophos wrote: |
| Mr_C wrote: | | Since you've had time to (hopefully) get over the structure of my argument, can you at least see my point? If so, do you agree or disagree? |
In all honesty, I didn't see much structure to the argument, so I can't say. |
Okay, Let me try again. Consider this "working on my logic", and help me out if you can...
Having free will means that we are able to make choices.
We are able to sin.
Sinning implies having a choice.
Therefore, we have free will.
| Philosophos wrote: |
I don't mean that as an insult. I honestly didn't see it. |
Ok, Dr. Nice 
| Philosophos wrote: |
| Mr_C wrote: | What stickhorse said.  |
Mmm.... will putting it in your own words make you feel better? |
No...I'm mainly just pissed that I couldn't articulate that in the original post.
On a side note, I used to get pissed off at my self all the time for not being able to articulate my points in an absolutely clear fashion. The funny thing is, when I tried to describe this problem in the past, nobody understood exactly what I was trying to say!  |
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gnosis
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Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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So does free choice somehow imply that God could be surprised by our actions?
Is it free choice if God has planned that we will sin, knows we will sin and programmed us to do it? |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 2051
Local time: 10:24 PM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Ok Philosophos it time for my supper break I'll leave things in your hands. If anything big happens just say God didit and run
_________________
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Ok Philosophos it time for my supper break I'll leave things in your hands. If anything big happens just say God didit and run |
i swear, i love this guy..
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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gnosis
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Local time: 11:24 PM
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Ok Philosophos it time for my supper break I'll leave things in your hands. If anything big happens just say God didit and run |
Well if he exists, he is responsible. After all he knew Philo would do it and planned it that way, right!? |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Ok Philosophos it time for my supper break I'll leave things in your hands. If anything big happens just say God didit and run |
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stickhorse
Antichrist
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | | So does free choice somehow imply that God could be surprised by our actions? |
yes
| gnosis wrote: | | Is it free choice if God has planned that we will sin, knows we will sin and programmed us to do it? |
no
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you'll never believe what i got baddogma to do for a klondike bar! |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| gnosis wrote: | So does free choice somehow imply that God could be surprised by our actions?
Is it free choice if God has planned that we will sin, knows we will sin and programmed us to do it? |
It could be that we exist solely to entertain God. Think about how boring it must be for an entity that can have anything. So one day he thinks, I will create creatures that have free will. That way I won't know what to expect. Wouldn't it be fun?
God = Roman emperor... nice on a t-shirt |
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baddogma
antitheist
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry |
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| atheod wrote: | | AisA wrote: | | I was raised to believe that god knows all; past, present and future. When I confronted my learned scholars with "Then how can we have a free will?" the best answer they could come up with was "Well, it's a mystery of faith!" Sorry people. You can't have it both ways. If this god knew [knows] the future then there can be no free will nor a hell, for that matter, if this god is, as you preach, all loving and merciful. |
I assert there can be no record of the future until it comes to pass. Knowledge is a record of the past. You can't have a record of the future, it doesn't exist yet. It's illogical to claim God can have a record of something that doesn't exist. |
Heh, so much for Prophecy asshat!
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Can omnicient god who knows the future find the omnipotence to change his future mind?
I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar....
smartmarzipan: "Debating fundies is like playing chess with pigeons. They knock over all the pieces, shit all over the board, and then fly back to the roost to declare victory." |
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atheod
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Joined: 11 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry |
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| baddogma wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | AisA wrote: | | I was raised to believe that god knows all; past, present and future. When I confronted my learned scholars with "Then how can we have a free will?" the best answer they could come up with was "Well, it's a mystery of faith!" Sorry people. You can't have it both ways. If this god knew [knows] the future then there can be no free will nor a hell, for that matter, if this god is, as you preach, all loving and merciful. |
I assert there can be no record of the future until it comes to pass. Knowledge is a record of the past. You can't have a record of the future, it doesn't exist yet. It's illogical to claim God can have a record of something that doesn't exist. |
Heh, so much for Prophecy asshat! |
You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future. |
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Mr_C
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry |
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| atheod wrote: |
You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future. |
If I know with 100% certainty that X will occur at a specific time, do I know the future? Not technically, I suppose, but practically. If God knows every variable and exactly how they will interact with each other at every given moment in time, he practically knows the future even if the future hasn't "happened" yet.
Regarding God and Time:
Where is God, so that He can observe time relative to earth at such a perfect vantage point?
Is He on earth, so that He can observe things in real time?
Or is He in "Heaven", many billions of years away*, so that He only sees things happen as they happened billions of years ago? In which case, isn't God billions of years into our future? Or is it both, so that God is here in real time and billions of years into the future?
/me turns into an ignostic
*Heaven must be at least further than our microscopes can view since we haven't seen it yet, right? |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 2051
Local time: 10:24 PM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry |
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| atheod wrote: | | baddogma wrote: | | atheod wrote: | | AisA wrote: | | I was raised to believe that god knows all; past, present and future. When I confronted my learned scholars with "Then how can we have a free will?" the best answer they could come up with was "Well, it's a mystery of faith!" Sorry people. You can't have it both ways. If this god knew [knows] the future then there can be no free will nor a hell, for that matter, if this god is, as you preach, all loving and merciful. |
I assert there can be no record of the future until it comes to pass. Knowledge is a record of the past. You can't have a record of the future, it doesn't exist yet. It's illogical to claim God can have a record of something that doesn't exist. |
Heh, so much for Prophecy asshat! |
You don't need knowledge for prophecy. You just need the power to make happen what you say will happen. That's not future knowledge, that's knowledge of your present will for the future. |
I am not going to get into an argument with a theist here but since no one else is asking I will. 3 questions
1. Is your views based on revelation or is it the only logical way you can conceive of a good God
2. If God can be surprised how does He know that the promises He made to man will be the best move
3. How can you be confident God will win, especially since there has already been some catastrophic failures according to your worldview
_________________
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 11:24 PM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry |
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| Mr_C wrote: | If God knows every variable and exactly how they will interact with each other at every given moment in time...
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He can't. Quantum Mechanics forbids it... |
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