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Free Will and sundry
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Raskolnikov
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:

romans120 wrote:

stickhorse wrote:

theists drive me fucking insane with this one!

the most common response i get is:
"god's foreknowledge doesn't mean that we don't have a choice."

i swear you could explain it to 'em 1,000,000 different ways and they just won't get it.

Brick wall

Just so I get represented in all these free will threads. Free will in the christian sense is product of a hereticle teaching known as Pelagianism possibly began by Pelagius in the 4th century (he may not have taught the heresy attributed to him) Free will is not even a little bit articulated in scripture. The will is always described as a slave either to sin or to God.

Yeah I wanted to bring that up. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the Bible that humans have free will.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown

Raskolnikov
The Axe Murderer

Joined: 22 Oct 2007
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject:

Mr_C wrote:

Moloth wrote:

oh, i know enough about Calvinism.

i also know that it is a poor example of trying to apply logic to the illogical.

How do you mean?

yeah, what do you mean by that? They are just following the scripture to a tee. I don't see how that is putting logic into it.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown

Moloth
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject:

i mean that they're trying to take the illogical bits of christianity and logically extrapolate them out to their reasonable conclusions... If so and so, Then so and so must be true, Therefore we do not have free-will, yet must CHOOSE to do something. eh.. i can expand on this later when i have more time, if you'd like. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=- www.Moloth.com Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

romans120
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject:

Moloth wrote:

i mean that they're trying to take the illogical bits of christianity and logically extrapolate them out to their reasonable conclusions...

If so and so, Then so and so must be true, Therefore we do not have free-will, yet must CHOOSE to do something.

eh.. i can expand on this later when i have more time, if you'd like.

A believer does not choose God or Salvation. God chooses the believer for salvation. A more technical term for this is monergism. In other words I never chose to become a christian. Becoming a Christian happened to me. The immediate result of this event is a realization that I deserved condemnation and repentance from sin
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/

Moloth
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:

romans120 wrote:

Moloth wrote:

ah.. so missionaries are just wasting their breath?

and, how can you (universal 'you') blame the atheist for BEING an atheist?
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total

Mr_C
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject:

Moloth wrote:

romans120 wrote:

Moloth wrote:

ah.. so missionaries are just wasting their breath?

Romans is likely to say something about how God uses people for his divine will or something to that effect.

Quote:

and, how can you (universal 'you') blame the atheist for BEING an atheist?

I don't think he can, and he would (probably) readily admit that.
But that doesn't mean that God can't save any one of us at any given time, according to his theology.

josephpalazzo
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject:

Moloth wrote:

and, how can you (universal 'you') blame the atheist for BEING an atheist?

For some reason, I don't like this. I want to be blamed... I INSIST...

Raskolnikov
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

Moloth wrote:

Not with Calvanism.
_________________
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
-Dr. Emmett Brown

atheod
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Free Will and sundry

AisA wrote:

I was raised to believe that god knows all; past, present and future. When I confronted my learned scholars with "Then how can we have a free will?" the best answer they could come up with was "Well, it's a mystery of faith!" Sorry people. You can't have it both ways. If this god knew [knows] the future then there can be no free will nor a hell, for that matter, if this god is, as you preach, all loving and merciful.

I assert there can be no record of the future until it comes to pass. Knowledge is a record of the past. You can't have a record of the future, it doesn't exist yet. It's illogical to claim God can have a record of something that doesn't exist.

atheod
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:31 am Post subject:

Raskolnikov wrote:

romans120 wrote:

stickhorse wrote:

Yeah I wanted to bring that up. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the Bible that humans have free will.

It implies humans have a will. There is no such thing as another type of will then free will. If your will isn't free, it's not your will.

josephpalazzo
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:56 am Post subject:

atheod wrote:

Raskolnikov wrote:

romans120 wrote:

stickhorse wrote:

Yeah I wanted to bring that up. It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the Bible that humans have free will.

It implies humans have a will. There is no such thing as another type of will then free will. If your will isn't free, it's not your will.

Hey, you're pretty good at dodging... Rolling Eyes

Mr_C
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:54 am Post subject:

romans120 wrote:

Moloth wrote:

Something I was thinking about this morning as I was getting ready for work:

According to Calvinistic Theology, Man lives in either of two states, a slave to sin or a slave to God.

Man is born with "total depravity" - being a slave to sin.
If God wants to save somebody, that person would then become a slave to God.

Man did nothing here. Man had no choice (or will). God brought man into the world as a slave to sin and either chose to change his slave status to slave of God, or not.

Keep in mind that, because of Calvinist's doctrine of "irresistible grace", when God chooses to save someone, that individual cannot resist and will certainly become a slave to God.

This begs the question:
Why should man feel sorry, much less repentant, for something over which he had (and still has) NO control?
God willed man to be a slave to sin.
God predestined his elect to be a slave to God.
At no point here is man NOT a slave and, thus, a puppet to God's will.

There is a wild card though: The only people that repent are God's elect. They beg forgiveness and turn to God because God willed them to beg forgiveness and turn to Him. At this point, it's becoming apparent that there actually is not a rational reason for man to feel the least bit sorry (much less repentant) for his sinful nature, and that the only reason man would repent is because God pulled the "repent string" of his puppet.

Let's take a look at the big picture:
According to Calvinistic Theology, God is a master puppeteer who decided an eternity ago that man would either be a slave to sin or a slave to Him. The ones that God doesn't elect to be a slave to Him must burn in a sadistic Hell for all eternity because they were slaves, and had no will to choose otherwise.

On the other hand, God's elect get to worship Him for all eternity because he is so very just. They also had no choice in this, but are happy about it because God made them feel happy about it.

Unfortunately for the Christian believer, this is the only theology that comes close to making sense within a Biblical context.

Even more unfortunate for the Christian believer: As a logical consequence of their theology, they have admitted that they actually have basis for claiming to be moral or ethical in any sense of the word, since they have no free will.

Another conundrum with the theology is the phrase "slave to sin". The word "sin" implies that man has some sort of choice. However, as I've demonstrated above, man doesn't according to Calvinistic Theology. As a result of this, Calvinists may safely eliminate the word "sin" and any derivitive thereof from their vocabulary. It would make more sense if they called themselves "Puppet that will burn in Hell for all eternity (Not Saved)" or "Puppet that won't burn in Hell for all eternity (Saved)"

Obviously the word "Saved" must take on a new meaning as well. Since they aren't "saved" from sin per se, they are actually "saved" from a sadistic monster-puppeteer named "God". Well, not saved from Him, but saved from his terribly just punishment for having been created by Him. This is man's crime. That they live. This is Calvinism.
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Philosophos
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:

Mr_C wrote:

This begs the question:
Why should man feel sorry, much less repentant, for something over which he had (and still has) NO control?

Because, according to the Calvinist theology, man will be what he is. Why "should" he feel what he feels is a nonsensical question. One cannot do what he cannot do.

By saying "should", you're abusing what people "ought" to do. "Should" man cure cancer? Of course, if he could!!! But, as is the common saying, "should" implies "can". It's ridiculous to say that one "should" do something which one can't.

Quote:

Another conundrum with the theology is the phrase "slave to sin". The word "sin" implies that man has some sort of choice.

Absolutely not. It simply means that a man disobeyed God.
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Mr_C
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject:

Dang. That was classic theist bait and all I caught was a philosopher. Laughing

Philosophos wrote:

Mr_C wrote:

This begs the question:
Why should man feel sorry, much less repentant, for something over which he had (and still has) NO control?

Given what I wrote, you're absolutely right. I meant to say something different though... let me try again:
Why should God's Elect feel sorry, much less repentant, for something over which they had (and still have) no control?
Remember that repentance is the key to salvation, but I'm arguing that there is no rational basis for repentance other than a puppeteer pulling the "repent" string of its puppet.

Philosophos wrote:

Quote:

Another conundrum with the theology is the phrase "slave to sin". The word "sin" implies that man has some sort of choice.

Absolutely not. It simply means that a man disobeyed God.

And the terms "obey" and "disobey" don't imply choice either? Not within Calvinism, obviously, but generally?

romans120
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject:

[quote="Mr_C"]Dang. That was classic theist bait and all I caught was a philosopher. Laughing

[quote="Philosophos"][quote="Mr_C"]

Quote:

This begs the question:
Why should man feel sorry, much less repentant, for something over which he had (and still has) NO control?

I want to deal with your above post more throughly but I only have a couple minutes so I get to that one later. There is one fundamental thing wrong with this statement. Repentance is not a feeling. To Repent means to "turn or change your direction" Repentance does not mean you feel badly for being a theif. It means you stop stealing. So even though God is in control of the man. The man is the object that who's direction was changed
_________________
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/

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