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Jutter
Quixotic Cloggy
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 6607
Local time: 8:36 AM
Location: Den Helder, the Netherlands
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Dutch banks don't pull that charging extra shit, so perhaps they don't do so in the USA either.
RABObank comes highly reccomended, and they can be found in the SoCal area.
http://www.rabobankamerica.com/locations.aspx
I'm with the ING group myself; they have a branch in LA
http://www.ing.com/group/index.jsp
_________________
~ Let us be reasonable ~
Congratulations: you are paracorrect about the supernatural.
*"If there were nobody listening to gods anymore, there would be nothing left for us to do,...
... then to finally start listening to each other."
*As any gamer will tell you: God-mode is a cheat-code. |
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sjc
P.I.T.A.
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 1603
Local time: 3:36 AM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: F*%k WaMu! |
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| CET wrote: | That's right, Fuck Washington Mutual!
It's bad enough that you can't do ANYTHING unless you're at your home branch. It's bad enough that if you move out of state you can't get to your money because now you're in a "different" WaMu system. Check this LATEST piece of crap out:
I went to the ATM to withdraw some money. I'm no longer with WaMu (guess why), but this is the nearest ATM to me. The ATM says there's a $2 charge to get my cash. Whatever, that's the price of asking someone else to get my money. I get home and check my account, and WaMu took an EXTRA $1.50 ON TOP of the $2 ATM fee! What the fuck is that hidden fee happy horse shit all about?!  |
That's why I use a virtual No-Fee Bank. I switched from a bank that had a $2 service fee for going to a teller. You save more money each month by stuffing it in your mattress than you do in a bank. I only use the bank to pay my bills. Banks assert that very little of their profits come from these many services fees, but of course they're lying.
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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sjc
P.I.T.A.
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 1603
Local time: 3:36 AM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | I've been with my current CU for a while and I'm TOTALLY with you on that. I don't like being nickeled and dimed, but being hit with charges and not being warned of them, that's just over the line. Something deep down inside of me tells me that's GOTTA be illegal. |
Most of the stores here absorb the debit card fee, though many have a minimum purchase of $5 to use the debit card.
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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sjc
P.I.T.A.
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 1603
Local time: 3:36 AM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | Welcome to non-credit unions.
Banks are evil. The "manipulation of money" questions have always kept me from being a libertatian in those quizzes...  |
Exactly. 
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America is not worth the effort anymore. RIP. It was suicide. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12816
Local time: 11:36 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | Well my bank which is actually Canadian. So most likely unavailable to you. I don't get charged anything at all to have money. I get 3.8% interest minimum for just have money in the bank. My mutual fund is getting around 9% interest. Also as I'm in the military I move around and I specifically asked if there would be any problem if I went into a completely different city and went to their bank(CIBC) would there be ANY problems. There are none. No extra surcharges. No need to transfer stuff around or anything.
Anyway.. if you're unhappy with a bank. Goto a different one. They won't even bother with you unless you have quite the chunk of money with them. |
Your mutual fund is only getting 9%? You might consider a better fund, since it's underperforming the current market AND the average market. I don't entertain any funds that don't do AT LEAST 12% over the past 10 years.
Here's where I contradict myself.
Index funds are good since they not only pace the market at ~11%, but they hardly ever sell, so they almost never trigger capital gains taxes. AND you don't need to pay some jack ass money to research and maintain it.
_________________
Namaste,
CET 
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 2:36 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| CET wrote: | | munky99999 wrote: | Well my bank which is actually Canadian. So most likely unavailable to you. I don't get charged anything at all to have money. I get 3.8% interest minimum for just have money in the bank. My mutual fund is getting around 9% interest. Also as I'm in the military I move around and I specifically asked if there would be any problem if I went into a completely different city and went to their bank(CIBC) would there be ANY problems. There are none. No extra surcharges. No need to transfer stuff around or anything.
Anyway.. if you're unhappy with a bank. Goto a different one. They won't even bother with you unless you have quite the chunk of money with them. |
Your mutual fund is only getting 9%? You might consider a better fund, since it's underperforming the current market AND the average market. I don't entertain any funds that don't do AT LEAST 12% over the past 10 years.
Here's where I contradict myself.
Index funds are good since they not only pace the market at ~11%, but they hardly ever sell, so they almost never trigger capital gains taxes. AND you don't need to pay some jack ass money to research and maintain it. |
There's an american recession coming as the government change has discontinued its spending into the economy and thusly your core mutual funds which typically run 12-15% will actually loose money during recessions. While guarenteed/registered investments like GICS or bonds will still bring in the money. WHILE the high risk stuff which puts money into things which will still continue to grow during a recession.
So 9% during a recession is pretty damn good. In the event the recession doesn't occur... it'll bring in a much higher level then expected. In the event that news like severe unemployment or poverty leads the recession into a depression... Not only core stocks but the high risk stocks also dont perform and mutual funds die out. It'll still leave me with a fair amount in guarenteed investments like bonds or what have you.
If your bank is quoting you at least 12% in a recession... I'd be going to the FBI and reporting them for inside trading or something.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12816
Local time: 11:36 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | Your mutual fund is only getting 9%? You might consider a better fund, since it's underperforming the current market AND the average market. I don't entertain any funds that don't do AT LEAST 12% over the past 10 years.
Here's where I contradict myself.
Index funds are good since they not only pace the market at ~11%, but they hardly ever sell, so they almost never trigger capital gains taxes. AND you don't need to pay some jack ass money to research and maintain it. |
There's an american recession coming as the government change has discontinued its spending into the economy and thusly your core mutual funds which typically run 12-15% will actually loose money during recessions.
While guarenteed/registered investments like GICS or bonds will still bring in the money. WHILE the high risk stuff which puts money into things which will still continue to grow during a recession.
So 9% during a recession is pretty damn good. In the event the recession doesn't occur... it'll bring in a much higher level then expected. In the event that news like severe unemployment or poverty leads the recession into a depression... Not only core stocks but the high risk stocks also dont perform and mutual funds die out. It'll still leave me with a fair amount in guarenteed investments like bonds or what have you.
If your bank is quoting you at least 12% in a recession... I'd be going to the FBI and reporting them for inside trading or something. |
1. I don't take stock in market predictions, they're usually based on short term speculation, and there are WAY too many variables involved to make an accurate prediction.
2. I don't calculate returns on a day to day or even a year to year basis. The purpose of investing is to invest and then leave your investment the hell alone. The returns I mention are based on an average of 5-10 years. Anything less then that is not investing, but more like speculating, which is a risky form of gambling. There has never been a 10 year period where the average annual market growth was below 11%. Of course there are fluctuations from year to year, but over the long term, the market is ALWAYS up.
3. Mutual funds, and particularly index funds, ALWAYS beat bonds and T-Bills over a 5-10 year period. Besides, I don't like capitalizing on the nation's habit of buying into more debt. Mortgaging the future for instant gratification is not a good recipe, and I want no part of it.
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 2:36 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1. I don't take stock in market predictions, they're usually based on short term speculation, and there are WAY too many variables involved to make an accurate prediction. |
Well you don't need to take them as God's omnisicent plan accurate. However, they are good enough to take a look at and give a sort of non-binding quote. Honestly that quote for the repairs on your car is just as accurate at the stock predictions. You can look at both and they don't mean anything until it actually happens.
| Quote: | | 2. I don't calculate returns on a day to day or even a year to year basis. |
I just check it out weekly or so. Just to check how it's running. Not to make any changes or anything.
| Quote: | | The purpose of investing is to invest and then leave your investment the hell alone. |
Sort of true for the amateurs who have sort of a clue what is going on. On the otherhand it's also smart to keep an eye on the news and to extrapolate how that might effect the stocks in the future. For example. "Inconvient Truth by fatmangore" now i dont know how much stock you take into global warming. Personally I believe it exists. Just that the fictional stories created around it is BS. Anyway the effect of this is going to move people away from gas and what have you. eventually the oil companies and such won't be pulling in a profit and their stocks won't grow neither.
Another one is how attendance for churches are dropping rather quickly. The recent polls in my area alone are showing a high of 20% of the # of followers in the area actually goto church. This is due to moreso the Homer simpson factor of people starting to feel its worthless to goto church. ETC. Eventually the #s of those claiming to be religious will drop well enough. It will also lead to things like Churchs loosing their advantages like their special tax-exemptions and law exemptions. Which will cause a huge cost to these churchs to either clean up or shut up. Which will destroy these religious based groups.
What can you extrapolate from these 2 examples... 1 don't put money into the oil companies and don't put money into the religious groups. Where right now you might actually get pretty good short term value. In the medium timeline it'll drop out into loosing money. Now these things are settings you can set with your profile or whatever they call it. They then will follow these stipulations. So investing and letting them work ur money might not be the best way.
| Quote: | | The returns I mention are based on an average of 5-10 years. |
If I took out the bonds-gics part of my stuff. Which is pretty tiny. It'd reinvest into the plan. Over the last 5-10 years i believe it has been running around 23% interest. Due to the extremly low perfectly safe bonds it's pulling in closer to 16% which hasn't been bad. Though my stuff is extremly new and I haven't actually gotten anything of the sort yet on my money.
| Quote: | | Anything less then that is not investing, but more like speculating, which is a risky form of gambling. |
Ya I don't like to gamble. I like to inside trade JK. Though in the future I do plan to save up money in the next 5 years and put the money into some extremly volatile stock IPO groups. To sit on for 20 years. If I can.
| Quote: | | There has never been a 10 year period where the average annual market growth was below 11%. Of course there are fluctuations from year to year, but over the long term, the market is ALWAYS up. |
You apparently haven't actually followed the north american markets. You also don't seem to understand the idea of normal market vs recession vs depression. Which by definition is exactly what you're speaking about. Furthermore the fact that the growth of the market is worth far less than the debt overseas that the american government is growing. Which I'd alluded to earlier. The american government is looking like it will be going into a recession. This is due to the fact that the democrats took the senate and congress or such and stopped the money overseas to flowing into the country. Add on top of that when they have to start shifting money back out of the country to cover the debt overseas. The american economy will suffer pretty bad. Which if the american economy suffers... the canadian one suffers also.
So your typical medium and low risk mutual funds will NOT grow. The high risk still grows but also has even more chance of breaking.
| Quote: | | 3. Mutual funds, and particularly index funds, ALWAYS beat bonds and T-Bills over a 5-10 year period. Besides, I don't like capitalizing on the nation's habit of buying into more debt. Mortgaging the future for instant gratification is not a good recipe, and I want no part of it. |
You're right except in bad situations like recession and depression. Where your mutual funds and clearly seen to suffer. Hell if there's news of a depression coming after a recession hits hard... your bank may cash out your mutual funds. I know the big banks in Canada certainly would be getting an interview with you on that topic if it occurs. Also say hypothetically there's some disaster which basically destroys your mutual funds and makes them worth nothing. Bonds and such are still worth a value that they are guarenteed for. Which being realistic... the muslims haven't gone anywhere and if the economy tanks. They might attack and destroy the economy further. So some small guarenteed amount sitting there getting a tidbit of interest incase of bad emergency is a pretty good thing to have.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12816
Local time: 11:36 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | 1. I don't take stock in market predictions, they're usually based on short term speculation, and there are WAY too many variables involved to make an accurate prediction. |
Well you don't need to take them as God's omnisicent plan accurate. However, they are good enough to take a look at and give a sort of non-binding quote. Honestly that quote for the repairs on your car is just as accurate at the stock predictions. You can look at both and they don't mean anything until it actually happens. |
An economy is a lot more complex then a car engine. I'll take my mechanic's quote over a market speculator's idea of what's going to happen on a macro level any day of the week.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | The purpose of investing is to invest and then leave your investment the hell alone. |
Sort of true for the amateurs who have sort of a clue what is going on. On the otherhand it's also smart to keep an eye on the news and to extrapolate how that might effect the stocks in the future. For example. "Inconvient Truth by fatmangore" now i dont know how much stock you take into global warming. Personally I believe it exists. Just that the fictional stories created around it is BS. Anyway the effect of this is going to move people away from gas and what have you. eventually the oil companies and such won't be pulling in a profit and their stocks won't grow neither.
Another one is how attendance for churches are dropping rather quickly. The recent polls in my area alone are showing a high of 20% of the # of followers in the area actually goto church. This is due to moreso the Homer simpson factor of people starting to feel its worthless to goto church. ETC. Eventually the #s of those claiming to be religious will drop well enough. It will also lead to things like Churchs loosing their advantages like their special tax-exemptions and law exemptions. Which will cause a huge cost to these churchs to either clean up or shut up. Which will destroy these religious based groups.
What can you extrapolate from these 2 examples... 1 don't put money into the oil companies and don't put money into the religious groups. Where right now you might actually get pretty good short term value. In the medium timeline it'll drop out into loosing money. Now these things are settings you can set with your profile or whatever they call it. They then will follow these stipulations. So investing and letting them work ur money might not be the best way. |
I think all of that is a given. I'm just saying that if I get into a mutual fund, I'm not going to touch it for at least 5 years, unless I think shit's gonna hit the fan. Leaving an investment alone doesn't mean one should neglect it.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | There has never been a 10 year period where the average annual market growth was below 11%. Of course there are fluctuations from year to year, but over the long term, the market is ALWAYS up. |
You apparently haven't actually followed the north american markets. |
I'm talking about the NYSE. I'm also going to step it up and say that there has never been a 2 year period of negative GDP growth in the US economy since the beginning of the 20th century. When I bet on index funds, I'm betting that the economy as a whole is going to be doing better in 10 years. I'd also be willing to take that bet on the Canadian, or European economy. All of the above are very robust and worth investing heavily in.
| munky99999 wrote: | | You also don't seem to understand the idea of normal market vs recession vs depression. Which by definition is exactly what you're speaking about. |
I understand that after 10 years, the American economy has ALWAYS grown, and I'm willing to bet that it will continue to do so.
I also understand that "recession" and "depression" means that mutual funds are on sale, because everyone else is freaking out and bailing.
| munky99999 wrote: | | Furthermore the fact that the growth of the market is worth far less than the debt overseas that the american government is growing. Which I'd alluded to earlier. The american government is looking like it will be going into a recession. This is due to the fact that the democrats took the senate and congress or such and stopped the money overseas to flowing into the country. Add on top of that when they have to start shifting money back out of the country to cover the debt overseas. The american economy will suffer pretty bad. Which if the american economy suffers... the canadian one suffers also. |
That's going to slow down expansion for sure, but I think saying "recession" is jumping the gun. Further, It would be political suicide for the democrats to purposely throw the economy into recession just as they gain some power back.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | 3. Mutual funds, and particularly index funds, ALWAYS beat bonds and T-Bills over a 5-10 year period. Besides, I don't like capitalizing on the nation's habit of buying into more debt. Mortgaging the future for instant gratification is not a good recipe, and I want no part of it. |
You're right except in bad situations like recession and depression. Where your mutual funds and clearly seen to suffer. |
It depends on the specific mutual fund and the interest rates. Some funds get better in down economies, funds that support early economic indicators such as construction, and materials.
| munky99999 wrote: | | Hell if there's news of a depression coming after a recession hits hard... your bank may cash out your mutual funds. |
You're talking 1929 kind of stuff, and that's so unlikely to happen that it's almost not worth talking about.
1. Mutual funds are tens of thousands of times more safe then stock investment. That's the point of a mutual fund, diversifying in order to lower risk.
2. Index funds are so safe that the country would have to be nuked out of existence for an index fund to tank. I can't see 20% of the Fortune 500 companies tanking, let alone half or all of them, and that's what would have to happen in order for your scenario to play out.
3. I don't buy index funds through banks, or a mutual fund company, just look at an index and buy one of each. Tell your broker to buy and sell according to what enters and exits the index. Cheap, easy, good return, and as safe as an investment gets. Of course, this isn't technically a mutual fund, but it's easier to say.
| munky99999 wrote: | | I know the big banks in Canada certainly would be getting an interview with you on that topic if it occurs. Also say hypothetically there's some disaster which basically destroys your mutual funds and makes them worth nothing. |
If my mutual funds are destroyed, the world's going to be coming to an end soon, so no need to worry about my mutual funds anyway. 
| munky99999 wrote: | | Bonds and such are still worth a value that they are guarenteed for. Which being realistic... the muslims haven't gone anywhere and if the economy tanks. They might attack and destroy the economy further. So some small guarenteed amount sitting there getting a tidbit of interest incase of bad emergency is a pretty good thing to have. |
I simply won't buy a government bond or T-Bill, because of the ethics involved. I'm not going to contribute to the mortgaging of our future in order to satisfy instant gratification today. I routinely vote against all bond measure in election, and I'm sure as hell not ever buying one, regardless of the rate offered. I'd sooner buy gold. 
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 2:36 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | An economy is a lot more complex then a car engine. I'll take my mechanic's quote over a market speculator's idea of what's going to happen on a macro level any day of the week. |
you sort of ignored the point i was making.
| Quote: | | I think all of that is a given. I'm just saying that if I get into a mutual fund, I'm not going to touch it for at least 5 years, unless I think shit's gonna hit the fan. Leaving an investment alone doesn't mean one should neglect it. |
That just sounds wierd to me.
| Quote: | | You're talking 1929 kind of stuff, and that's so unlikely to happen that it's almost not worth talking about. |
Well as I said... a recession is coming. If something really hits it bad like another 9/11. A depression can occur. Furthermore it's better safe then sorry.
| Quote: | | 1. Mutual funds are tens of thousands of times more safe then stock investment. That's the point of a mutual fund, diversifying in order to lower risk. |
Now youre just talking oranges vs apples or whatever. You can get a mutual fund setup which is very diverse and JUST AS high risk as you can get with your random stock choices.
| Quote: | | 2. Index funds are so safe that the country would have to be nuked out of existence for an index fund to tank. I can't see 20% of the Fortune 500 companies tanking, let alone half or all of them, and that's what would have to happen in order for your scenario to play out. |
Which is why you only do like less then 5% of the money into bonds and such. Hell only like 35% or so of mine is actually in the core/index. Furthermore the idea is to have some guarenteed cash safe incase of worst case scenarios.
| Quote: | | 3. I don't buy index funds through banks, or a mutual fund company, just look at an index and buy one of each. Tell your broker to buy and sell according to what enters and exits the index. Cheap, easy, good return, and as safe as an investment gets. Of course, this isn't technically a mutual fund, but it's easier to say. |
LOL ur likely getting more like 2% growth on that.... that's exactly how some bonds work.
| Quote: | | If my mutual funds are destroyed, the world's going to be coming to an end soon, so no need to worry about my mutual funds anyway. |
Did the world end during the great depression? If another big depression were to occur. My mutual fund would be dead but I'd still have a decent amount of money from the guarenteed bonds and such. Then guess what? I have a decent amount of money left to plan with in the short future.
| Quote: | | I simply won't buy a government bond or T-Bill, because of the ethics involved. I'm not going to contribute to the mortgaging of our future in order to satisfy instant gratification today. I routinely vote against all bond measure in election, and I'm sure as hell not ever buying one, regardless of the rate offered. I'd sooner buy gold. Shocked |
Heh getting a job in the military then wouldn't be your cup of tea neither. Which i did. Then again I'm in Canada and we aren't doing the same idiotic crap that the USA does.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12816
Local time: 11:36 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | An economy is a lot more complex then a car engine. I'll take my mechanic's quote over a market speculator's idea of what's going to happen on a macro level any day of the week. |
you sort of ignored the point i was making. |
No, I just didn't think it was a particularly good one. Sorry. 
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | You're talking 1929 kind of stuff, and that's so unlikely to happen that it's almost not worth talking about. |
Well as I said... a recession is coming. If something really hits it bad like another 9/11. A depression can occur. Furthermore it's better safe then sorry. |
Again, I don't put much weight into predictions. Of course there's going to be a recession eventually, but trying to guess when has never turned out well in my estimation.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | 1. Mutual funds are tens of thousands of times more safe then stock investment. That's the point of a mutual fund, diversifying in order to lower risk. |
Now youre just talking oranges vs apples or whatever. You can get a mutual fund setup which is very diverse and JUST AS high risk as you can get with your random stock choices. |
That doesn't make sense. In order for a mutual fund to be as risky, there would have to be only one company in the fund. Otherwise, it couldn't possibly be as risky.
Further, the chances of EVERY company in a fund going down the tubes are less likely then any one stock I might hold. Funds are already diversified, which is why they're safer.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | 2. Index funds are so safe that the country would have to be nuked out of existence for an index fund to tank. I can't see 20% of the Fortune 500 companies tanking, let alone half or all of them, and that's what would have to happen in order for your scenario to play out. |
Which is why you only do like less then 5% of the money into bonds and such. Hell only like 35% or so of mine is actually in the core/index. Furthermore the idea is to have some guarenteed cash safe incase of worst case scenarios. |
I don't put any money into bonds, they disagree with my ethics. I put 100% of my investment money, not invested in my business, into an index.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | 3. I don't buy index funds through banks, or a mutual fund company, just look at an index and buy one of each. Tell your broker to buy and sell according to what enters and exits the index. Cheap, easy, good return, and as safe as an investment gets. Of course, this isn't technically a mutual fund, but it's easier to say. |
LOL ur likely getting more like 2% growth on that.... that's exactly how some bonds work. |
I don't buy bonds, I buy stocks in every company in an index, such as the S&P 500. I average well over 11%/year on average. Some years are very good, and some years are not as good, but they're always better then 0%.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | If my mutual funds are destroyed, the world's going to be coming to an end soon, so no need to worry about my mutual funds anyway. |
Did the world end during the great depression? If another big depression were to occur. My mutual fund would be dead but I'd still have a decent amount of money from the guarenteed bonds and such. Then guess what? I have a decent amount of money left to plan with in the short future. |
Not EVERY company tanked in the depression, and not every company that lost money went bankrupt and closed. Only enough of them lost money, and/or closed down to make a large dent in the economy. Most of the companies that existed, continued to exist and prosper. It's just that unemployment went higher then normal, up to ~25-30%. Even in a depression, I would still do very well. In order for my fund to tank, EVERY company in my fund would have to tank. If the 500 best companies in America tank, we're in a LOT more trouble then just worrying about my ROI.
| munky99999 wrote: | | CET wrote: | | I simply won't buy a government bond or T-Bill, because of the ethics involved. I'm not going to contribute to the mortgaging of our future in order to satisfy instant gratification today. I routinely vote against all bond measure in election, and I'm sure as hell not ever buying one, regardless of the rate offered. I'd sooner buy gold. Shocked |
Heh getting a job in the military then wouldn't be your cup of tea neither. Which i did. Then again I'm in Canada and we aren't doing the same idiotic crap that the USA does. |
I was in the service, I was in naval aviation. I supported test, evaluation, and development of weapons, weapons system, and tactics, electronic counter measure, and air to air refueling. I am a decorated combat veteran and I still don't buy bonds.
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Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 2:36 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Again, I don't put much weight into predictions. Of course there's going to be a recession eventually, but trying to guess when has never turned out well in my estimation.
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When it happens doesn't really matter that much. It's the fact that it is likely going to happen and effect my mutual fund. Such that designing your fund to be safe incase of such situations is good.
| Quote: | | That doesn't make sense. In order for a mutual fund to be as risky, there would have to be only one company in the fund. Otherwise, it couldn't possibly be as risky. |
Take for example. I go and put all my money into Canadian Pacific Railway. This really isn't risky given that their stock has been extremly stable and given their plans that I've read for the future you will likely get a fairly nice return.
Alternative I could go into an extremly foolish extremly high risk mutual fund which basically puts money into 100 stocks which undoubtable is going to cost you money.
So ya.
| Quote: | | I don't buy bonds, I buy stocks in every company in an index, such as the S&P 500. I average well over 11%/year on average. Some years are very good, and some years are not as good, but they're always better then 0%. |
Well seeing as the S&P500 only averages like 5% before fees and all that... and thats assuming you hit all the good ones.. the others who mirror the stocks and try to work around fees and such... and the big large one is only running about 4.5% over the last few years. While actually down 1% this year. On top of that... if the recession does occur. You're looking at some serious loss. As the core groups are those who get hurt.
| Quote: | | Not EVERY company tanked in the depression, and not every company that lost money went bankrupt and closed. Only enough of them lost money, and/or closed down to make a large dent in the economy. Most of the companies that existed, continued to exist and prosper. It's just that unemployment went higher then normal, up to ~25-30%. Even in a depression, I would still do very well. In order for my fund to tank, EVERY company in my fund would have to tank. |
I don't expect EVERY company to ever tank... and such an extreme is certainly sounding like misrepresentation. The thing I don't want is to say put 100,000 in and then wait 10 years. Then be off on vacation somewhere and not pay attention to anything for a few weeks. While some disaster occurs. Where all my growth over the 10 years disappears and possibly I loose some of my initial also gets beat away. Or whatever story.
Now the need for a tidbit of guarenteed parts like bonds. In the case of your EXTREME misrepresentation occuring. Where literally everything becomes 0.
| Quote: | | If the 500 best companies in America tank, we're in a LOT more trouble then just worrying about my ROI. |
Well again its not just your return but your initial investment also. While YES it would be lots of trouble. However having some bonds to pay out to you in that worst case. Would certainly be good.
| Quote: | | I was in the service, I was in naval aviation. I supported test, evaluation, and development of weapons, weapons system, and tactics, electronic counter measure, and air to air refueling. I am a decorated combat veteran and I still don't buy bonds. Wink |
Heh thats wacky.
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A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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tkster
Forum Leader
Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 544
Local time: 5:36 PM
Location: Lubbock, TX
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: |
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There will always be people who tell you the market is soon to crash, and they have always been wrong since the depression. We definitely live in a more global society, so we do have advantages that others in the past did not have. I would be careful about putting all your investments into American funds, as diversifying your investments on a global level helps yourself, other economies, and ours. The other thing is don't avoid stocks either. If I had listened to these dumbass shits about the economy crashing, I would never made a good solid amount of cash. A couple of years ago when I was still with T. Rowe Price I bought 500 shares of Apple and a year and a half later, their stock almost doubled.
I've since switched to Fidelity as they have lower prices on day-trading, but for the most part I completely pwned my dad who claimed that I was going to be a dumbass for investing in the first place.
tk
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CET
The Spiritual Atheist
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
Posts: 12816
Local time: 11:36 PM
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:44 am Post subject: |
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People who advise against investing:
1. Don't understand investing.
2. Want to feel like it's not their fault that they didn't get what they wanted out of life.
While watching crab fishermen, Robert Kyosaki noticed some crabbers put crabs into a tray with a wall only 6 inches high. Robert asked one crabber, "Why such the short wall on these trays, certainly the crabs can easily climb the wall and escape." The crabber replied, "You're right, but they don't escape. When one crab tries to climb over this short wall, the others gang up on him and pull him back into the tray."
_________________
Namaste,
CET
The Spiritual Atheist
"Much of the suffering in the world comes from the delusion that we are separate from one another." - Gautama Buddha
"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music." - George Carlin |
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Jason_Harvestdancer
WonderMod Powers ACTIVATE!
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 2406
Local time: 11:36 PM
Location: Northern LA County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | Welcome to non-credit unions.
Banks are evil. The "manipulation of money" questions have always kept me from being a libertatian in those quizzes... |
The banks as we know them now are definitely not something a libertarian would support. For a good history on how we got to where we are, Rothbard's "Case Against the Fed" describes banks before the Federal Reserve made fractional reserve possible and widespread in the USA.
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LakeGeorgeMan actually think's I'm Socrates.
Visit my wife's art gallery |
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