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Nox
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 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | then why strive so diligently to 'transcend' to find it?
or
then why strive so diligently to create it? |
I didn't strive diligently towards anything. I read various texts concerning the philosophy and decided that I agreed with it.
| Quote: | | the universe merely is. you merely are. why this need for transcendence of ego? |
I wouldn't describe it as a need - billions of people will live extraordinarily fulfilling and happy lives without ever seeing the I become the eye. I'm not actively trying to break out of my ego; I simply acknowledge the transcendental experience, and that its implications can lead to a more peaceful life.
| Quote: | | why this need to close a gap that does not exist? we are all the same matter an energy of the universe. every atom. every quanta of energy. |
You could be quoting Ken Wilbur.
People who advocate shedding the ego will use something along the lines of your statement to explain that they aren't trying to close a gap that doesn't exist, but rather to realize that it doesn't exist. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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fair enough.
i'm always suspect of people who take a predetermined, ready-made course for enlightenment. Even using terminology and concepts that others have used for their own path seems... less than sincere. i do not mean this as an accusation... merely, an expression of my general concern about such things.
I think of myself as 'transcendent', hence my flippancy about life in general, but i came upon it very much alone. no texts, no books, and few words from outside my own mind of inspiration or guidance.
I always fear that some people are freethinkers, but only because they followed some sort of 'script' or codified steps to reach such a position, which would, of course, negate the whole premise.
"i wander, but only in the well-worn path wandered by those before me" kinda thing...
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Nox
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
i'm always suspect of people who take a predetermined, ready-made course for enlightenment. Even using terminology and concepts that others have used for their own path seems... less than sincere. i do not mean this as an accusation... merely, an expression of my general concern about such things.
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Why? It's simply more sane to say "samadhi" than to go through an explanation of an identical experience cited by individuals across radically disparate cultures and time periods. Just like we say "gravity" rather than all coming to the independent conclusion, in our own terms, that things fall towards the ground, I tap into a common language of shared experience.
| Quote: |
I always fear that some people are freethinkers, but only because they followed some sort of 'script' or codified steps to reach such a position, which would, of course, negate the whole premise. |
I'm not following a script or any sort of codified steps, though the option is available to me. I'm simply trying to expand myself by looking at what other people have found, and trying to constantly gain a better understanding of the world around me by getting out of my own paradigm. I don't think the fact that I've agreed with other people's words lessens my stance in any way, or somehow precludes me from being a free thinker |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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if one finds words that one agrees with after the fact, then that is an agreement.
if one reads the words and then decides they are true, they are merely mimicking, parroting, the journey.. not partaking of it purely of themselves.
Enlightenment is a singular journey that one takes one on one with existence. Hearing other's words and experiences may color or obscure the clarity that you're trying to seek.
I acknowledge that i am individualistic in my opinions about this. I simply do not think that the path IS, in fact, able to be a 'shared experience'. I could be incorrect, or, also likely, i could just have such a different path that i have not encountered anyone who has made it, in my way, before me. this is not a conjecture of arrogance or conceit. moreso, one of loneliness.
I do not presume to hint that your path is incorrect or less so, in any way, than mine or anyone else's. I am simply sharing my perfectly fallible experience and opinion. 
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Nox
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | if one finds words that one agrees with after the fact, then that is an agreement.
if one reads the words and then decides they are true, they are merely mimicking, parroting, the journey.. not partaking of it purely of themselves. |
So you figured out that the earth revolves around the sun yourself?
Truth is what it is, regardless of how it was discovered. A Buddhist who achieves enlightenment is not "less enlightened" than Siddhartha because the later preceded the former and laid the road out for him. I am not less of an existentialist because someone decided that existence precedes essence before I did.
If I was following a step-by-step initiation or some other guided "blueprint" towards higher understanding or attainment I might agree with you on some levels, but it strikes me as counter-productive to ignore the vast amounts of wealth others have tapped into in one's quest for personal truth.
| Quote: | | Enlightenment is a singular journey that one takes one on one with existence. Hearing other's words and experiences may color or obscure the clarity that you're trying to seek. |
Or they may challenge one's paradigm. The fact of the matter is that it is EXCEEDINGLY easy to miss flaws in one's own system without the perspective of other systems. I'm not following Ken Wilbur or Lao Tzu's path, but I think that both tapped into the same realization that Thoreau and Spinoza did, and I this speaks deeply to my own experience. I fail to see how examining ideas should be abandoned for fear of "contamination."
Also, to tie this briefly to our discussion of Thelema, this is a large part of the reason why Thelemites are given the ultimate authority to interpret The Book of the Law and why proselytization is so heavily frowned upon in the religion (something that, in my opinion, will also ensure that it dies out before too long).
| Quote: | | I acknowledge that i am individualistic in my opinions about this. I simply do not think that the path IS, in fact, able to be a 'shared experience'. I could be incorrect, or, also likely, i could just have such a different path that i have not encountered anyone who has made it, in my way, before me. this is not a conjecture of arrogance or conceit. moreso, one of loneliness. |
I would argue that, as individuals have successfully followed in the paths of others and reached the same levels of development and understanding, paths can be communicated. Personally I prefer to work out my own path up the mountain, looking to various landmarks discovered by my predecessors and contemporaries for ideas and to constantly challenge my own presumptions. If you want to climb alone, by all means do so - it cannot be denied that forcing yourself to rely almost entirely on your own insights has its benefits. |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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oh, yeah? well i'm a MILLION times more humble than YOU are.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Moloth, there's no need to re-invent the wheel for each succession; it's only efficient to build upon others past experiences.
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"Why not just make your null hypothesis be that..." - Philosophos |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Sal1981 wrote: | | Moloth, there's no need to re-invent the wheel for each succession; it's only efficient to build upon others past experiences. |
but, if that is done, why have YOUR experiences at all?
Why not just lounge on the shoulders of giants and have them carry you?
What if there is a better thing than the wheel?
I only fear that people confuse reading and then believing the truth and knowing the truth.
Knowing something is different that understanding something.
Like i've said... i appreciate the fact that i am more than a little individualistic about this subject.
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www.Moloth.com
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spozmo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Sal1981 wrote: | | Moloth, there's no need to re-invent the wheel for each succession; it's only efficient to build upon others past experiences. |
but, if that is done, why have YOUR experiences at all?
Why not just lounge on the shoulders of giants and have them carry you?
What if there is a better thing than the wheel?
I only fear that people confuse reading and then believing the truth and knowing the truth.
Knowing something is different that understanding something.
Like i've said... i appreciate the fact that i am more than a little individualistic about this subject. |
Isn't it possible to read something and identify the parts that are not simply necessary from preceding parts?
I suppose what I am saying here is that there are premises or evidences and things that fall out from them. Examining the latter is a matter of seeing if they fit into some kind of formula (most of the time) examining the former may be what is necessary to avoid what you are worried about.
If from one of these foundations, a huge number of things fall out necessarily, then simply by accepting that foundation and the system by which its consequences are reached, you are giving credence to all the rest of it. You don't have to come to the conclusions on your own with a full understanding of them in every case, but you should be able to do so about the premises. It is possible to find these premises after a long search as a result of hearing someone else say them.
It seems that it's impossible for anyone to hand them to you in their complete form, though. You can say you understand a basis for a kind of thought because someone reported it to you, but you don't... I feel like I'm about to start going in circles, so I'll stop here.
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"The hard work of one man does more than the prayers of millions."- A Bumper Sticker |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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It is more of the FEAR of that happening, than the actual OCCURRENCE of it happening, i suppose. I fear the gaps between being educated - intelligent - and wise.
3 vastly different things... and i have seen one mistaken, or even portrayed, as another far too many times and each time it smells of hubris.
What pleases without guilt is when i find a saying that conveys what i have already thought, or at least glimmered, but does so with much more impact or clarity. I always feel a tad guilt or even foolish (and pleased and excited at the same time) when i read something that i should have already have conceived of. It is a delicious epiphany, no doubt, but some of the joy is lost in the self-reproach of HAVING to hear from someone one else first.
have i mentioned that i have entirely too high standards for myself? lol...
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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spozmo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | have i mentioned that i have entirely too high standards for myself? lol... |
Montaigne says that the virtuous man puts himself in tempting or difficult situations in order to test and improve his virtue.
There's nothing wrong with high standards, but you should be proud of setting them instead of being ashamed or guilty when you don't reach them.
Of course, you should still try to reach them. They should also be reachable.
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"There is too little love in the world to devote any of it to an imaginary being."-Nietzsche
"The hard work of one man does more than the prayers of millions."- A Bumper Sticker |
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Nox
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | oh, yeah? well i'm a MILLION times more humble than YOU are. |
Sorry, was that meant to be taken seriously? Damn computers and their lack of inflection... |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Nox wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | oh, yeah? well i'm a MILLION times more humble than YOU are. |
Sorry, was that meant to be taken seriously? Damn computers and their lack of inflection... |
DEAD serious. and if you wanna fight about, i'll serenity your ass from Nirvana and back.
I'll enlighten the hell outta you.
*cracks knuckles*
*grips rosary beads like a garrote*
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Nox
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Nox wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | oh, yeah? well i'm a MILLION times more humble than YOU are. |
Sorry, was that meant to be taken seriously? Damn computers and their lack of inflection... |
DEAD serious. and if you wanna fight about, i'll serenity your ass from Nirvana and back.
I'll enlighten the hell outta you.
*cracks knuckles*
*grips rosary beads like a garrote* |
...
Perhaps its the hangover, but the drive of your posts completely eludes me. Care to elaborate? |
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Moloth
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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lol... "Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow" -Oscar Wild.
i have a habit of trying inject humor into everything... even around here. 
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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