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Unbeliever
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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We're always being challenged to "prove God doesn't exist" without the asker telling us exactly what they mean when they use the term "God". How can anyone prove the existence or non-existence of an undefined entity?
I'd like to see if the theists on the board can define the term "God" in such a way that they can all agree on it. Then Maybe we can decide whether its existence is provable or not.
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"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
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God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
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romans120
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | We're always being challenged to "prove God doesn't exist" without the asker telling us exactly what they mean when they use the term "God". How can anyone prove the existence or non-existence of an undefined entity?
I'd like to see if the theists on the board can define the term "God" in such a way that they can all agree on it. Then Maybe we can decide whether its existence is provable or not. |
It's highly unlikely you'll get any number theists to be unified on a subject kind like it's unlikely any number of atheists would be unified on a particular subject because were all different people. But I'll give you a definition. A good definition is one that you can not take away any part of it and it still define the object being defined. The definition for God is that which is eternal (has no cause just is) self-existent (does not depend upon the existence of another object in order to exist) It necessarily follows that this Eternal and self-existent object is the source of all that is.
Now I have a challenge for you. Since you do not believe in God. Define existence and meaning apart from that eternal object.
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The Resident Theist
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
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Unbeliever
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| romans120 wrote: | | It's highly unlikely you'll get any number theists to be unified on a subject kind like it's unlikely any number of atheists would be unified on a particular subject because were all different people. |
Well, in order for a mathematician to prove or disprove a conjecture, all the terms in the conjecture must be rigorously defined, such that mathematicians can all agree on it. In order for a physicist to prove or dispreove a hypothesis, all of the terms in the hypothesis must be rigorously defined, such that all physicists can agree on it. Anything that is undefined does not merit any consideration at all in either of those disciplines.
| Quote: | | But I'll give you a definition. A good definition is one that you can not take away any part of it and it still define the object being defined. |
OK.
| Quote: | | The definition for God is that which is eternal (has no cause just is) self-existent (does not depend upon the existence of another object in order to exist) |
Is that all there is to God? Any theists out there agree or disagree with that definition?
| Quote: | | It necessarily follows that this Eternal and self-existent object is the source of all that is. |
I don't see how "it necessarily follows" at all. Why does it necessarily follow?
| Quote: | | Now I have a challenge for you. Since you do not believe in God. Define existence and meaning apart from that eternal object. |
Maybe we'll save that for another thread, since it's not the subject of this one. I'm looking for a definition of "God" that theists can agree on. If there isn't one, then we'd have to disprove the existence of every definition of "God". That seems to me to place an undue burden on atheists, when we don't have the burden of proof in the first place.
_________________
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth
Last edited by Unbeliever on Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Unbeliever
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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From here:
| Quote: | "Then what if I managed to logically prove that God exists?"
Firstly, before you begin your proof, you must come up with a clear and precise definition of exactly what you mean by "God." A logical proof requires a clear definition of that which you are trying to prove.
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"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth |
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eximius
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| Quote: |
The definition for God is that which is eternal (has no cause just is) self-existent (does not depend upon the existence of another object in order to exist) It necessarily follows that this Eternal and self-existent object is the source of all that is. |
How does it follow? Could it not exist and not be the source of everything?
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Now I have a challenge for you. Since you do not believe in God. Define existence and meaning apart from that eternal object. |
This is difficult because "existence" in itself is a definition. Existence simply means that something exists. I can't see any way of defining a definition.
Plus one other thing, what leads you to your definition of god? (Just curious)
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Raskolnikov
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: | We're always being challenged to "prove God doesn't exist" without the asker telling us exactly what they mean when they use the term "God". How can anyone prove the existence or non-existence of an undefined entity?
I'd like to see if the theists on the board can define the term "God" in such a way that they can all agree on it. Then Maybe we can decide whether its existence is provable or not. |
It's highly unlikely you'll get any number theists to be unified on a subject kind like it's unlikely any number of atheists would be unified on a particular subject because were all different people. But I'll give you a definition. A good definition is one that you can not take away any part of it and it still define the object being defined. The definition for God is that which is eternal (has no cause just is) self-existent (does not depend upon the existence of another object in order to exist) It necessarily follows that this Eternal and self-existent object is the source of all that is. |
That's the difference romans. You believe that this eternality has a consciousness. Atheists do not.
| romans120 wrote: | | Now I have a challenge for you. Since you do not believe in God. Define existence and meaning apart from that eternal object. |
What does not believing in God have to do with existence and meaning apart from the object?
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"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, underwhich weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, for if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
"The future is not set in stone. The future is what you make it. So make it a good one!"
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Knight_of_BAAWA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| romans120 wrote: | | Now I have a challenge for you. Since you do not believe in God. Define existence and meaning apart from that eternal object. |
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Blatant question-begging: presumes that existence and meaning rely on god without having demonstrated such.
Further: attempting to define something into existence ala Anselm doesn't work. So please: stop being a fucking goober.
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| One needs evidence and observations before a definition. I see no evidence. |
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aitm
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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(is sure he smells the odor of someone smokin crack)
defining god is like describing how you found an empty stall when your guts were cramped and diarrhea was lickin cotton. To you, it is easy to understand and appreciate the beauty and relief of the moment, to the listener, just more crap.
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Its not that I question so much whether a god created man, but that he would admit it.- Thomas Brumfield
psst, theres a vagina on your bumper!
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| Unbeliever wrote: |
Well, in order for a mathematician to prove or disprove a conjecture, all the terms in the conjecture must be rigorously defined, such that mathematicians can all agree on it.
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Argh... define a point? |
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| romans120 wrote: | Define existence and meaning apart from that eternal object.
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Existence: what is, a being.
Meaning: the sense or significance of something. |
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Unbeliever
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: |
Well, in order for a mathematician to prove or disprove a conjecture, all the terms in the conjecture must be rigorously defined, such that mathematicians can all agree on it.
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Argh... define a point? |
Point
_________________
"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."
Akhenaton?( c. B.P. 1575)
God Not Found - resources for atheist/agnostics
"the universe is under no obligation to be easy for us to comprehend."
moloth |
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josephpalazzo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Can "God" be rigorously defined? |
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| Unbeliever wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Unbeliever wrote: |
Well, in order for a mathematician to prove or disprove a conjecture, all the terms in the conjecture must be rigorously defined, such that mathematicians can all agree on it.
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Argh... define a point? |
Point |
"A point 0-dimensional mathematical object", "that which has no part."
Brilliant... |
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Eallan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: |
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I've always thought of this as an excellent point.
By placing "God" outside of facts and the ability to be proven (Take it on faith), theists have placed god outside the ability to be disproven.
It's a very fine design that ensures religions survival in the face of science and expanding human knowledge.
As far as defining existence and meaning...
Why can't "The Universe as we know it" be what has existed eternally. No consciousness, no goals, no thoughts. Just an area be what has always been.
You don't think the Earth has consciousness just because thats what your house is built on. It's a fallacy.
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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" |
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starling
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: I cannot improve on perfection |
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Looking for my box. |
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