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ShaSha
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 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Kniva wrote: | @ShaSha
| Quote: | | Otherwise I like how our country is. We allow within reason but aren't frightened to take a stand where good sense is necessary. |
So why did you come up with your (very general) critique concerning the option to forbid the burqa in the first place? |
That is quite obvious. A driver's license is an ID period so a burka in that case would prevent the purpose of the license. It is the only place that we in the states have taken a stand against the Burka. There are a few places where companies have taken a stand against some clothing due to OSHA requirements, safety that is.
France on the other hand wants to keep all women from wearing it, even those who want to. I see France as being overwhelmed with the influx of Muslims and desparate at trying to keep their secular grasp. Yet secular doesn't mean cookie cutter look alikes. Secular means laws that are based on the greater good for all by rational thinking not religious or anti religious thinking.
So their stand is against freedom of choice where no harm is done. |
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Kniva
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if forbidding the burqua is an option then it's most reasonably prohibited for everyone. How, would you think, could the US-American society avoid this total stance, if good sense is necessary here?
And i remind you that it definately is good sense in case of the burqa. How can this be a stand against freedom of choice, if you admit that an (unclear) number of women don't wear this dress voluntarily?
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Buckster
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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It's estimated that if things stay on course, France will be dominated by Muslims within 25 years. Somewhere around that point, it could very well begin to take on the political and cultural identity of other dominant Muslim countries, and could even have Sharia law incorporated and eventually replace France's current laws completely.
PR126 may be a raving anti-Muslim, but it's likely because he lives in a place where the same thing is taking place all around him, as is most of Europe. The writing is on the wall, and unless something's done to change its course, Britain and France are likely to become the new Afghanistan and Iran within a couple of generations. In the process, things are likely to get quite bloody, if history is any indication, and it usually is.
But it's not hurting anything...
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Kniva
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Thats not likely since it would mean that France would have to leave the EU. I also tend to strongly doubt the suppositions of those statistcs regarding the reason to assume similar conditions in the future. But i agree that the muslim influence on Europe in total is growing and it has some dangerous potential. I actually think that countries like France have a right to defend their public culture (to a degree) even though no real threat of peoples freedom and health is likely. However the most striking argument for me against burqas are the women forced to wear it. Like Pat Condall would probably say it: What a lousy bunch of losers we would be (are), if we wouldn't say a word about those questionable costoms coming to Europe. There will be a point where Europeans have to deal with the fact, that some traditions coming from muslim countries ultimately violate the liberal order in Europe. |
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divinus_fortuna
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Kniva wrote: | @ShaSha
| Quote: | | Otherwise I like how our country is. We allow within reason but aren't frightened to take a stand where good sense is necessary. |
So why did you come up with your (very general) critique concerning the option to forbid the burqa in the first place? |
That is quite obvious. A driver's license is an ID period so a burka in that case would prevent the purpose of the license. It is the only place that we in the states have taken a stand against the Burka. There are a few places where companies have taken a stand against some clothing due to OSHA requirements, safety that is.
France on the other hand wants to keep all women from wearing it, even those who want to. I see France as being overwhelmed with the influx of Muslims and desparate at trying to keep their secular grasp. Yet secular doesn't mean cookie cutter look alikes. Secular means laws that are based on the greater good for all by rational thinking not religious or anti religious thinking.
So their stand is against freedom of choice where no harm is done. |
Your arguments are totally flawed.. first of all that thing about drivers license does not even apply.. chances are those under burka are not allowed to to drive anyway (and not by the law but by their families..)
As for France wanting to defend what is thiers I am all for it and frankly I dont see why wouldn't they? I dont see US appologizing for their illegal wars all over the globe .. and all in the name of democracy (and off course they get to define what that is..)...hahah what a joke..
And there is HARM in it.. even if there is 5-10% of women (and that is a huge understatement) that are forced to wear it agains their will, in my mind that warrants intervention... I choose not to turn bling eye to abuse ... |
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Zeitgeist
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Just to throw my .02 cents in here...I consider myself somewhat libertarian, But I would support a ban on burkas. The idea of women actually choosing to wear a burka is laughable, if they were to try to choose NOT to wear one, they would be punished according to "Allah's Will."
It is not real freedom of choice. |
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Buckster
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Kniva wrote: | | Thats not likely since it would mean that France would have to leave the EU. |
If the Muslims take over, do you think they'll give a fuck about that? Does Allah give a fuck if they're part of the EU?
| Kniva wrote: | | I also tend to strongly doubt the suppositions of those statistcs regarding the reason to assume similar conditions in the future. |
I don't follow you. I suspect that sentence doesn't actually make sense outside of your own head, but give it a shot. Maybe I'm just slow today.
| Kniva wrote: | | But i agree that the muslim influence on Europe in total is growing and it has some dangerous potential. |
And that "dangerous potential" would be... ?
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| divinus_fortuna wrote: |
Your arguments are totally flawed.. first of all that thing about drivers license does not even apply.. chances are those under burka are not allowed to to drive anyway (and not by the law but by their families..)
As for France wanting to defend what is thiers I am all for it and frankly I dont see why wouldn't they? I dont see US appologizing for their illegal wars all over the globe .. and all in the name of democracy (and off course they get to define what that is..)...hahah what a joke..
And there is HARM in it.. even if there is 5-10% of women (and that is a huge understatement) that are forced to wear it agains their will, in my mind that warrants intervention... I choose not to turn bling eye to abuse ... |
My argument isn't totally flawed nor flawed at all.
Your reasoning is flawed completely though because you didn't notice I was speaking of the USA not another country. 
The driver's license does apply. That is the only headline that ever was made about burkas in the USA to my knowledge. And in our country there are women who have become Muslims who haven't given up their right to drive.
My opinions on France were finished some time ago. My reply was to someone who asked about the states and why I think they are more sensible.
So if you must argue with me, can we get focused on the same country? Thanks and cheers. |
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divinus_fortuna
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | divinus_fortuna wrote: |
Your arguments are totally flawed.. first of all that thing about drivers license does not even apply.. chances are those under burka are not allowed to to drive anyway (and not by the law but by their families..)
As for France wanting to defend what is thiers I am all for it and frankly I dont see why wouldn't they? I dont see US appologizing for their illegal wars all over the globe .. and all in the name of democracy (and off course they get to define what that is..)...hahah what a joke..
And there is HARM in it.. even if there is 5-10% of women (and that is a huge understatement) that are forced to wear it agains their will, in my mind that warrants intervention... I choose not to turn bling eye to abuse ... |
My argument isn't totally flawed nor flawed at all.
Your reasoning is flawed completely though because you didn't notice I was speaking of the USA not another country.
The driver's license does apply. That is the only headline that ever was made about burkas in the USA to my knowledge. And in our country there are women who have become Muslims who haven't given up their right to drive.. |
I did not realize we were arguing ... I was just responding to what you said.. so more like talking..
in response to your
| ShaSha wrote: |
"My opinions on France were finished some time ago. My reply was to someone who asked about the states and why I think they are more sensible.
So if you must argue with me, can we get focused on the same country? Thanks and cheers.. |
You really need to keep the whole thread in your response if you cant remember what you said. You say your opinions on France were done yet the post I responded to has
| ShaSha wrote: |
France on the other hand wants to keep all women from wearing it, even those who want to. I see France as being overwhelmed with the influx of Muslims and desparate at trying to keep their secular grasp. Yet secular doesn't mean cookie cutter look alikes. Secular means laws that are based on the greater good for all by rational thinking not religious or anti religious thinking.
So their stand is against freedom of choice where no harm is done. |
Did I miss something or are you still refering to what France is doing?
I also find it interesting how you have no response to the fact that HARM is being done.. |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| divinus_fortuna wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | divinus_fortuna wrote: |
Your arguments are totally flawed.. first of all that thing about drivers license does not even apply.. chances are those under burka are not allowed to to drive anyway (and not by the law but by their families..)
As for France wanting to defend what is thiers I am all for it and frankly I dont see why wouldn't they? I dont see US appologizing for their illegal wars all over the globe .. and all in the name of democracy (and off course they get to define what that is..)...hahah what a joke..
And there is HARM in it.. even if there is 5-10% of women (and that is a huge understatement) that are forced to wear it agains their will, in my mind that warrants intervention... I choose not to turn bling eye to abuse ... |
My argument isn't totally flawed nor flawed at all.
Your reasoning is flawed completely though because you didn't notice I was speaking of the USA not another country.
The driver's license does apply. That is the only headline that ever was made about burkas in the USA to my knowledge. And in our country there are women who have become Muslims who haven't given up their right to drive.. |
I did not realize we were arguing ... I was just responding to what you said.. so more like talking..
in response to your
| ShaSha wrote: |
"My opinions on France were finished some time ago. My reply was to someone who asked about the states and why I think they are more sensible.
So if you must argue with me, can we get focused on the same country? Thanks and cheers.. |
You really need to keep the whole thread in your response if you cant remember what you said. You say your opinions on France were done yet the post I responded to has
| ShaSha wrote: |
France on the other hand wants to keep all women from wearing it, even those who want to. I see France as being overwhelmed with the influx of Muslims and desparate at trying to keep their secular grasp. Yet secular doesn't mean cookie cutter look alikes. Secular means laws that are based on the greater good for all by rational thinking not religious or anti religious thinking.
So their stand is against freedom of choice where no harm is done. |
Did I miss something or are you still refering to what France is doing?
I also find it interesting how you have no response to the fact that HARM is being done.. |
Oh, for Christ's sake. I understand there might be a language problem but must we banter about small shit?
First you used "argument" in your approach to me which simply means debate. So yes, we were debating and or arguing.
Yes, you missed something. My reply was specifically to a question on the USA. That I brought France in wasn't to argue again and again about France but rather a final summation. But my argument about whether they should or shouldn't is long over. All that can be said has been said.
I have responded over and over in different posts on how wearing a burka voluntarily harms nobody. That is as black and white in English as I can put it. I am not speaking of anything here now except VOLUNTARILY wearing a Burka, ok? |
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divinus_fortuna
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
Oh, for Christ's sake. I understand there might be a language problem but must we banter about small shit?
First you used "argument" in your approach to me which simply means debate. So yes, we were debating and or arguing.
Yes, you missed something. My reply was specifically to a question on the USA. That I brought France in wasn't to argue again and again about France but rather a final summation. But my argument about whether they should or shouldn't is long over. All that can be said has been said.
I have responded over and over in different posts on how wearing a burka voluntarily harms nobody. That is as black and white in English as I can put it. I am not speaking of anything here now except VOLUNTARILY wearing a Burka, ok? |
You are right..
I dunno why I bother |
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Kniva
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Buckster wrote: |
If the Muslims take over, do you think they'll give a fuck about that? Does Allah give a fuck if they're part of the EU? |
Yeah, if they call out a bloodthirsty caliphate after the great takeover, then everything is possible. My problem is that this is not a realistic scenario, it's a horror-story.
| Quote: | | I don't follow you. I suspect that sentence doesn't actually make sense outside of your own head, but give it a shot. Maybe I'm just slow today. |
Or maybe my English isn't that good. It`s supposed to mean that i don't see a reason to assume that the conditions resulting in large muslim population growth at present can be expected to be effective in the future as well.
| Kniva wrote: |
And that "dangerous potential" would be... ? |
Segregation, ghettoizing, honor-killings, etc. But not the massive colonialism you seem to expect. |
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SirThinkALot
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Joined: 25 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist wrote: | Just to throw my .02 cents in here...I consider myself somewhat libertarian, But I would support a ban on burkas. The idea of women actually choosing to wear a burka is laughable, if they were to try to choose NOT to wear one, they would be punished according to "Allah's Will."
It is not real freedom of choice. |
If a woman chooses to wear a burka because she believes it's 'Allah's Will' she should be allowed to. Thats what 'freedom of religion' means, that you can whatever you feel is necessary to fullfill your religious obligations.
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Shiranu
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| SirThinkALot wrote: | | Zeitgeist wrote: | Just to throw my .02 cents in here...I consider myself somewhat libertarian, But I would support a ban on burkas. The idea of women actually choosing to wear a burka is laughable, if they were to try to choose NOT to wear one, they would be punished according to "Allah's Will."
It is not real freedom of choice. |
If a woman chooses to wear a burka because she believes it's 'Allah's Will' she should be allowed to. Thats what 'freedom of religion' means, that you can whatever you feel is necessary to fullfill your religious obligations. |
My religion says women are less than dogs.
My religion says women should be concealed behind a veil.
My religion says infidels are inferiour and should be treated as such.
My religion allows me to beat my wife, and make her my slave.
But thats all dandy, because of freedom of religion.
But thats all okay, because its freedom of religion, right?
FUCK freedom of religion. Its a fucking joke. Human Rights and Human Dignity > Freedom of Religion, any day. There are other freedoms I have a problem with to, so don't think I am just out to get religion.
The burka is the modern day ball and chain, the modern day slave's attire, and I don't care if your willingly going to dress up that way, the burka stands for subjugation, enslavement, dehumanization, that the wearer is less than human, and does not even deserve to be seen. I care more about humans than petty freedoms. Freedom is a lie, there is no such thing. You might have some freedom, but never true freedom, and to be honest, I rather people lose freedom to the state than lose humanity to religion.
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Shawn1313
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| SirThinkALot wrote: | | Zeitgeist wrote: | Just to throw my .02 cents in here...I consider myself somewhat libertarian, But I would support a ban on burkas. The idea of women actually choosing to wear a burka is laughable, if they were to try to choose NOT to wear one, they would be punished according to "Allah's Will."
It is not real freedom of choice. |
If a woman chooses to wear a burka because she believes it's 'Allah's Will' she should be allowed to. Thats what 'freedom of religion' means, that you can whatever you feel is necessary to fullfill your religious obligations. |
I agree. Wearing a burka isn't hurting anyone. When you use religion to hurt someone else, that's when it crosses a line. I have a female muslim friend (who by the way, is a liberal feminist socialist) and she wears a burka. Shame on France.
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