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eximius Located: Behind you

Joined: 30 Aug 2007 Posts: 907 Local time: 9:41 PM Location: Wales

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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My grandfather has dementia. And to be honest sometimes I do think that it would be better if he would just die, because his condition is actually effecting my grandmother's health greatly as it's a strain on her and the rest of the family.
But something like this will not come to be the "norm" for at least another 30 years. People just can't think rationally enough as a whole to accept this kind of thing. _________________ "One is all for religion until one visits a really religious country. Then, one is all for drains, machinery and a miniumum wage." - Aldous Huxley
"Time is a great teacher. Unfortunately, it kills all its pupils." - Hector Berlioz |
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Gerard Forum Master


Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 4611 Local time: 9:41 PM Location: Groningen, the Netherlands

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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I shudder at the idea that Baroness Warnock would turn this into "duty to die". An ethical requirement based on some philosophical ideology. Wouldn't that put a lot of pressure on people to make the "right" choice?
Gerard _________________ The Historical Atlas of Europe
But as man exists in nature, I am not authorized to say that his formation, is above the power of nature.
Paul Henri Thiry Baron d' Holbach, (1723-1789)
Not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Gerard, (1962-*) |
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jdopus Protestant Atheist

Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 870 Local time: 4:41 PM Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed, if there's going to be any talk, it should be entirely in the hands of the individual. Their own choice, not something they're pressured or guilted into. _________________ No practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all others are based.
You know, on multiple occasions I've been asked if I'm a Protestant or Catholic Atheist. |
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Moloth In-tool-lectual

Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23218 Local time: 4:41 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| jdopus wrote: | | Indeed, if there's going to be any talk, it should be entirely in the hands of the individual. Their own choice, not something they're pressured or guilted into. |
precisely.
this is another case of where 'legal' and 'moral' don't necessarily intersect. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Rortykiller Forum Leader

Joined: 15 Jul 2008 Posts: 1079 Local time: 4:41 PM
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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pr126 glad someone posted it. Look, anyone here who has the slightest sympathy for this line of thinking is a Nazi and has a mute opinion as far as I'm concerned. I define liberal as one who find pain, death and humiliation the worst thing you can do to a person. And as a liberal I see this as being a very humiliating murder. Talk about waste of resources, Baroness Warnock is a Moral Philosopher. I could think of a bigger burden on the state than idiots with a following.
so much for the liberal Utopia of Europe, and welcome to 1984. Sickening _________________ How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.
-Ronald Reagan |
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kmisho Stochastic

Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 5406 Local time: 7:41 AM Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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The only moral responsibility we really need to minimize this problem is a sense of duty about making out a will. Tell people NOW how you want to be treated once the time comes when you won't be able to tell them anymore. _________________ K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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Moloth In-tool-lectual

Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23218 Local time: 4:41 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Rortykiller wrote: | pr126 glad someone posted it. Look, anyone here who has the slightest sympathy for this line of thinking is a Nazi and has a mute opinion as far as I'm concerned. I define liberal as one who find pain, death and humiliation the worst thing you can do to a person. And as a liberal I see this as being a very humiliating murder. Talk about waste of resources, Baroness Warnock is a Moral Philosopher. I could think of a bigger burden on the state than idiots with a following.
so much for the liberal Utopia of Europe, and welcome to 1984. Sickening |
which one is this? all three?
she, and her family, had to CONSTANTLY deal with pain and humiliation... death is a release in some cases.
its good enough for our pets.. we have enough compassion for THEM.. but suddenly its not good enough for our fellow human? _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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WashMDJD Forum Leader


Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 879 Local time: 3:41 PM Location: Wichita, KS

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Rortykiller wrote: | pr126 glad someone posted it. Look, anyone here who has the slightest sympathy for this line of thinking is a Nazi and has a mute opinion as far as I'm concerned. I define liberal as one who find pain, death and humiliation the worst thing you can do to a person. And as a liberal I see this as being a very humiliating murder. Talk about waste of resources, Baroness Warnock is a Moral Philosopher. I could think of a bigger burden on the state than idiots with a following.
so much for the liberal Utopia of Europe, and welcome to 1984. Sickening |
which one is this? all three?
she, and her family, had to CONSTANTLY deal with pain and humiliation... death is a release in some cases.
its good enough for our pets.. we have enough compassion for THEM.. but suddenly its not good enough for our fellow human? |
Indeed. And the fact that medical resources are zero-sum means that for every single day that a medical facility housed the shell of Terri Schaivo, that facility had to turn away another individual with medical problems. One more bed was filled. More drugs consumed. More food and water poured into her. More nurses, doctors, surgeons, and residents hours and expertise used up. Even if we had far more resources than we do now, the over-utilization of those resources by those who in many ways cannot, by their very nature, be benefitted by them, drives the cost of those same resources up for those who still can be benefitted by them - meaning that some will but pushed under the threshhold of their ability to pay. The question isn't whether, in some abstract world where we have infinite resources, individuals with serious debilitating illnesses should be treated - the answer there would seem to be that they should - and the answer there isn't all that controversial.
The real question is, "With our limited resources, we can only 'save' some - shouldn't we do like a military triage and save those who can be saved while admitting to ourselves that there may have to be tough choices made at the edges of what we can do?"
I know it sounds cold-hearted to some, but there's nothing 'Nazi-esque' about it at all. If we are truly committed to empathy and compassion - truly committed to lessening suffering - we have to take into account the suffering of everybody - not just the person involved.
In the essay linked to above, the philosopher Hardwig talks about an explorer in the Antarctic, who upon becoming ill and realizing that if his team stayed put to care for him, they would all die, abandoned his team and walked away into the ice alone in the middle of the night. What he did was heroic - but we should ask - what if he had demanded that they stay to take care of him instead? Should they have respected his wishes?
I think there's some definite room to debate, and I'm much less convinced that anyone with sympathy for a positive moral obligation to end one's life is automatically in league with radical racists. _________________ "Ne mea dona tibi studio disposta fideli,
Intellecta prius quam sint, contempta reliquas."
-Lucretius, De rerum natura
("...that my gifts here set forth for you with faithful solicitude, may not by you be contempuously discarded before they have been understood.")
"Mes amis, si j'avance, suivez-moi! Si je recule, tuez-moi! Si je meurs, vengez-moi!" --Henri de la Rochejaquelein |
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WashMDJD Forum Leader


Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 879 Local time: 3:41 PM Location: Wichita, KS

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | The only moral responsibility we really need to minimize this problem is a sense of duty about making out a will. Tell people NOW how you want to be treated once the time comes when you won't be able to tell them anymore. |
No kidding. EVERYONE should have an advance medical directive. I don't care if you are 78-years old with terminal cancer or if you are a 15-year old just starting to wonder about what college to attend after high school. You should get and Advance Medical Directive and fill it out.
If you don't have one - take 10 minutes and fill one out. You can get them for free online.
Go to http://www.caringinfo.org/stateaddownload and click on your state. Download the documents and fill them out.
For most states, they contain a state-specific advance medical directive, allowing you to tell doctors what you want done (do you want them to use heroic measures to save you when all hope seems gone? Do you want to have artificial hydration and food pumped into you if you are in a coma?) in the event that you arrive at a hospital in a state where you can't tell the doctors yourself. The documents also usually contain a durable power of attorney form, that allows you to designate somebody to make medical decisions for you in the event that you can't make them for yourself (you're unconscious, say, or brain-dead).
The documents are really easy to fill out - don't usually require anything beyond a witness or two to sign next to your name, and can provide you with lifelong benefits.
DO IT TODAY.
And after you fill them out, TELL SOMEONE that you filled them out. Give them to your parent, a brother or sister, a close friend - somebody. They don't do any good when they are locked inside your safe deposit box at the bank and nobody knows that they are there until AFTER they could have been useful. _________________ "Ne mea dona tibi studio disposta fideli,
Intellecta prius quam sint, contempta reliquas."
-Lucretius, De rerum natura
("...that my gifts here set forth for you with faithful solicitude, may not by you be contempuously discarded before they have been understood.")
"Mes amis, si j'avance, suivez-moi! Si je recule, tuez-moi! Si je meurs, vengez-moi!" --Henri de la Rochejaquelein |
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Moloth In-tool-lectual

Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 23218 Local time: 4:41 PM Location: Warner Robins, GA

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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| WashMDJD wrote: |
Indeed. And the fact that medical resources are zero-sum means that for every single day that a medical facility housed the shell of Terri Schaivo, that facility had to turn away another individual with medical problems. One more bed was filled. More drugs consumed. More food and water poured into her. More nurses, doctors, surgeons, and residents hours and expertise used up. Even if we had far more resources than we do now, the over-utilization of those resources by those who in many ways cannot, by their very nature, be benefitted by them, drives the cost of those same resources up for those who still can be benefitted by them - meaning that some will but pushed under the threshhold of their ability to pay. The question isn't whether, in some abstract world where we have infinite resources, individuals with serious debilitating illnesses should be treated - the answer there would seem to be that they should - and the answer there isn't all that controversial.
The real question is, "With our limited resources, we can only 'save' some - shouldn't we do like a military triage and save those who can be saved while admitting to ourselves that there may have to be tough choices made at the edges of what we can do?"
I know it sounds cold-hearted to some, but there's nothing 'Nazi-esque' about it at all. If we are truly committed to empathy and compassion - truly committed to lessening suffering - we have to take into account the suffering of everybody - not just the person involved.
In the essay linked to above, the philosopher Hardwig talks about an explorer in the Antarctic, who upon becoming ill and realizing that if his team stayed put to care for him, they would all die, abandoned his team and walked away into the ice alone in the middle of the night. What he did was heroic - but we should ask - what if he had demanded that they stay to take care of him instead? Should they have respected his wishes?
I think there's some definite room to debate, and I'm much less convinced that anyone with sympathy for a positive moral obligation to end one's life is automatically in league with radical racists. |
yes. well said. thank you. _________________ -=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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chookrooter Forum Master

Joined: 07 Jun 2008 Posts: 5515 Local time: 7:11 AM

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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | People with dementia should have the right to die if they feel they are a burden on others: |
Imo, ALL people already have the moral right to end their lives for any reason ,or for no reason. However, this is not a legal right in my country yet. It was for a few months,in the Northern Territory (1995). The Federal Government rescinded the law. There's a lot of support in Australia for voluntary euthanasia laws.
It's my plan to leave when I feel myself slipping too much. I'm thinking of some serapax and bottle of excellent cognac. Timing may be a problem, and I don't know how I'll feel then.
I do not now and have never felt the slightest qualms about being a burden on anyone. I'm perfectly willing to cause anyone any amount of inconvenience to stay alive. My fear is to die by inches,as I watched my father die,over a decade,aware of what is happening. I never once heard dad express the desire to die.
My father lost the ability to swallow,and died within a few days. Dad was 87,and demented.
http://www.nt.gov.au/lant/parliament/committees/rotti/rotti95.pdf |
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Strafio Forum Leader


Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 687 Local time: 9:41 PM
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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| pr126 wrote: | It is one of my fears that I could get so old and incapacitated that I should need constant care from others.
At that point, life to me has lost its meaning. Time to leave. |
Yeah. But I don't like the idea of it being a moral "duty"
I think that people should make the decision on their own, without feeling pressured in anyway.
Legalized euthanasia is one thing but she took it too far when she called it a duty. |
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Rortykiller Forum Leader

Joined: 15 Jul 2008 Posts: 1079 Local time: 4:41 PM
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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: |
she, and her family, had to CONSTANTLY deal with pain and humiliation... death is a release in some cases.
its good enough for our pets.. we have enough compassion for THEM.. but suddenly its not good enough for our fellow human? |
There is a difference between family or someone with the right of attorney making the call and the state making the call. I'm for euthanasia, but not as something the government can administer at their discretion. _________________ How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.
-Ronald Reagan |
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chookrooter Forum Master

Joined: 07 Jun 2008 Posts: 5515 Local time: 7:11 AM

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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yeah. But I don't like the idea of it being a moral "duty" |
It can only become a moral duty if you choose to allow it .I do not accept that others have the right to impose such a duty. I certainly do not permit some politician or academic to tell me what " I ought I to do"
My attitude to laws is pragmatic:I obey laws with which I agree without thinking too much. If I disagree,I obey when to disobey results in a penalty I am unwilling to pay.Allowing someone to kill me when I don't want to die is not in my best interest.
The problem I have with euthanasia laws is probably an irrational emotional fear response.IE That of the slippery slope argument. Once voluntary euthanasia is allowed, eventually involuntary euthanasia is allowed.
However,I think it needs to be kept in mind that virtually all hospitals all over the world practice euthanasia,usually passively,but sometimes actively. Think I'm wrong? Get to know a few nurses as personal friends. Passive euthanasia seems to be especially common in nursing homes. |
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