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ShaSha
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 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: |
PZ's point is that making appeals to religion is crazy and unjustified. Let's not forget that. It doesn't matter that he's the best of a bad field for free thinking voters. Granted, I think Clinton has made the least references to religion of entire field of candidates this year. |
Since we are pulling in the past, Clinton opposes gay marriage based on her religion. She was speaking to a Lesbian group and answered their question with the statement that she opposed gay marriage because she sees it as a sacred union between a man and a woman.
I'm not saying that she still has that stand. It was a year or two when I saw that.
So if religion is going to be pulled from Obama's past such as this thread, then to be fair, go to Clinton's past. |
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Castaa
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | Castaa wrote: |
PZ's point is that making appeals to religion is crazy and unjustified. Let's not forget that. It doesn't matter that he's the best of a bad field for free thinking voters. Granted, I think Clinton has made the least references to religion of entire field of candidates this year. |
Since we are pulling in the past, Clinton opposes gay marriage based on her religion. She was speaking to a Lesbian group and answered their question with the statement that she opposed gay marriage because she sees it as a sacred union between a man and a woman.
I'm not saying that she still has that stand. It was a year or two when I saw that.
So if religion is going to be pulled from Obama's past such as this thread, then to be fair, go to Clinton's past. |
Yes both Democratic candidates do not support "gay marriage" but do support "civil unions". The hypocrisy of a support for a "separate but equal" is alive and well. There was a story that ran the San Francisco paper the day of the California primary about Barack Obama's refusal to have his picture taken with San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom because of Newsom's open defiance of the California law against gay marriage 4 years ago:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/05/BAM5US1B5.DTL
This story bothered me and became the final straw for me to switch my vote to Clinton last week. Obama's consistent religious rhetoric was also a key reason why I decided against him. If you regularly listen to their speeches, there is a major difference between the two. I also think this an unspoken reason why Obama has "cross over" appeal to moderates and some conservatives. His speeches are regularly embedded with biblical phrases and references to an almighty god.
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Philosophos
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: | | Yes both Democratic candidates do not support "gay marriage" but do support "civil unions". The hypocrisy of a support for a "separate but equal" is alive and well. |
While Obama is personally against gay marriage, he does believe that the decision should be left to the states:
| Barack Obama wrote: | | I agree with most Americans, with Democrats and Republicans, with Vice President Cheney, with over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage, as they always have, should be left to the states. |
| Quote: | There was a story that ran the San Francisco paper the day of the California primary about Barack Obama's refusal to have his picture taken with San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom because of Newsom's open defiance of the California law against gay marriage 4 years ago:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/05/BAM5US1B5.DTL
This story bothered me and became the final straw for me to switch my vote to Clinton last week. |
I personally couldn't vote for Clinton in either the primary or the general election. She is a nanny state advocate who has demonstrates little knowledge of economics, poor judgement on foreign policy, and a ready willingness to resort to dishonesty during her campaign. What do you see in Clinton besides being an alternative to Obama?
As for the story, it's pretty weak. The only evidence presented in the story is hearsay from Willie Brown. And nowhere does Brown say why Obama allegedly "snubbed" Newsom.
| Quote: | | Obama's consistent religious rhetoric was also a key reason why I decided against him. If you regularly listen to their speeches, there is a major difference between the two. |
I haven't counted, but the fact is that they both pander to religion:
| Hillary Clinton, from her famous Southern Drawl speech, wrote: | | Thank you. This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. And I want to begin by giving praise to the Almighty for the blessings he has bestowed upon us as a congregation, as a people, and as a nation. |
I don't personally like pandering to religion either, but the fact is both candidates do it. I don't quite understand why one would base his vote on the perceived amount of times a candidate uses religious rhetoric, as opposed to actual issues.
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Philo on this one. Before I even finished the article I thought of the political implications of being seen with a man who is breaking the law for all practical purposes. And as the article suggests, gay marriage was a hot topic and Obama was in an election. I do think it was brought up the evening before the elections as a political move on the Clinton party. Hopefully that will be the worst of the mudslinging. I would love to see this election not sink as low as some of the previous ones.
Also let's say that it was entirely true that Obama shunned him for all of the biased reasons you are suggesting. People can change in 4 years and not just because they are in politics. I believe the guy is sincerely open to people and their differences because of his own background and his youth. I believe he has a gay manageer by happenstance not calculation. Naturally the latter opinions are just mine and not based on evidence.
Anyhoo, we will have to wait to see what happens at the convention. |
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Castaa
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Were southern blacks at lunch counters during the civil rights movement breaking the law? YES! This was an act of civil disobedience. He knew it was against the law. That was the point!
Philo, read the article again. Why would a liberal Afro-American Willie Brown lie about this? Other staffers in the article are mentioned that collaborated the story. It's obvious the reasons why Obama would avoid a picture with the face of gay marriage at the time. But a person of principle on the topic would have done it. It's only a freaking picture. It's obviously something Obama doesn't feel strongly enough about. Maybe Clinton would have done the same thing. However, it didn't happen that way and I can only go by what has happened.
You came up with one quote. In the last week, I've came across 4 different references to religious or Christian references by Obama. Maybe it is to counter the Muslim attacks. But that's certainly not the only way to handle it. I'm saying he does it much more. More then Kerry. More than Clinton. That matters to me. A lot.
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Philosophos
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: | | Philo, read the article again. Why would a liberal Afro-American Willie Brown lie about this? |
No lie is needed. Maybe Obama didn't want his picture taken for some other reason. Again, Brown gives no reason. Did Obama get his pictures taken with others at the event? If so, who? The article gives no details.
| Quote: | | Other staffers in the article are mentioned that collaborated the story. |
Not really. All the article says is this:
| Quote: | But insiders at City Hall, both current and former members of Newsom's staff, recall the incident well. And you can bet that Newsom hasn't forgotten it either.
"He was pissed," said one former staffer. |
One former staffer said Newsom was "pissed". This is hardly corroboration. How did Newsom come to know of Obama's supposed "snub"? Did Brown tell him? Did Obama run around the fundraiser saying "Don't take my picture with Newsom"? Did Newsom confront Obama directly about it? Or did Newsom jump to conclusions just like the article did? None of this is laid out in the article, and all of it is needed in order to come to the conclusion that this article jumped to.
Again, the story is total hearsay mixed with a hearty helping of speculation.
| Quote: | | You came up with one quote. In the last week, I've came across 4 different references to religious or Christian references by Obama. |
Do you want me to dig up more? I certainly could if it would change your mind.
| Quote: | | Maybe it is to counter the Muslim attacks. But that's certainly not the only way to handle it. I'm saying he does it much more. More then Kerry. More than Clinton. That matters to me. A lot. |
First, neither you nor I know if that's true. Secondly - why does it matter to you? I don't understand why rhetoric is more important to you than substance.
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| r_kamikaze wrote: | | Everytime I see you post I just wanna punch someone. |
| stromboli wrote: | | As always, you make meaningful and thoughtful contributions to the forum. |
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Ivan_Ivanov
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Castaa wrote: | | Maybe it is to counter the Muslim attacks. But that's certainly not the only way to handle it. I'm saying he does it much more. More then Kerry. More than Clinton. That matters to me. A lot. |
First, neither you nor I know if that's true. Secondly - why does it matter to you? I don't understand why rhetoric is more important to you than substance. |
Exactly.
Isn't one of the reasons why fundies are so terrifying the fact that they'll vote for anyone if he's Jesusy enough?
How is voting for someone because they're the least Jesusy, their stance on the economy, foreign policy, an other actual issues be damned, any better?
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Castaa
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Philos, I cannot for the life of me see how you can read the facts in the Newsom article and come away with another other credible conclusion about what motivated the Obama. But I guess we'll agree to disagree and not beat a dead horse.
I don't like Obama using religious rhetoric because he is wooing at least in part a constituency of religious minded voters. Voters that want a more Christian presidency not less. Voters that will be much more of a key demographic for him than Clinton if elected. Voters that he will feel a need to keep happy for reelection. Either with more religious friendly policy or at minimum furthering the idea that a president needs to wear his religion on his sleeve to govern. This is pernicious, IMO. As a secular humanist, Should I be backing this philosophy of politics if given a legitimate choice? Albeit not perfect but indeed a different religious style on the stump.
Please do find more recent religious quotes from Clinton. From what I've heard, it's not even close.
I have no problem voting for Obama in the general when compared to McCain. I'm not arguing this. There are major policy differences between the two. Policy wise, the differences between Obama and Clinton are largely negligible. It's almost exclusively about faith in idea that his style will overturn decades of entrenched warfare focus group tested politics. Is this reasonable to expect a real change? Especially with the expectation that worst is yet to come in this election. And the theme in the general election will be point to the profound ideological differences between liberal and conservative politics in America. I'm very skeptical style will win the day. Not that wouldn't I wish him well on this epic task.
I did some Googling and here are some articles that expose the religiosity of both Clinton and Obama. Judge for yourself.
Q&A with Obama for Christianity Today: 
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html
Christian Science Monitor on Obama:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0716/p01s01-uspo.html
Clinton on her faith: 
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1220/p01s02-uspo.html
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Philosophos
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Castaa wrote: | | Please do find more recent religious quotes from Clinton. From what I've heard, it's not even close. |
Okay. Here's more.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_urges_use_of_faith_based_initiatives/
| Quote: | Clinton invoked God more than half a dozen times, at one point declaring, "I've always been a praying person."
She said there must be room for religious people to "live out their faith in the public square." |
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0509,lombardi1,61604,6.html
| Quote: | She told an Albany crowd on January 24 that abortion represents "a sad, even tragic choice to many, many women," and singled out "religious and moral values" as an antidote to teenage sex.
...
Yet for all the notice of Clinton's centrist tone and morality-speak on the national stage, her New York constituents largely missed the senator's real debut as a God-fearing Middle American. It came in a January 19 speech in Boston that made headlines there, with Clinton appearing in a Globe photograph alongside the host, Reverend Eugene Rivers III, one of the state's most outspoken opponents of same-sex marriage. |
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-2.html
| Quote: | | Clinton's prayer group was part of the Fellowship (or "the Family"), a network of sex-segregated cells of political, business, and military leaders dedicated to "spiritual war" on behalf of Christ, many of them recruited at the Fellowship's only public event, the annual National Prayer Breakfast. (Aside from the breakfast, the group has "made a fetish of being invisible," former Republican Senator William Armstrong has said.) The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan. |
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speech/view/?id=5634
| Quote: | I have been a praying person, luckily, my entire life. I’m often asked whether or not I am. I am quick to tell people that I was raised by parents who were prayerful and by a church that guided me but had I not been a praying person, one week in the White House would’ve turned me into a praying person.
Everyday I try to act on the lessons of my faith, to reach that higher place.
....
It is time to reach out and embrace those of the margin and in the shadows. To usher them back to speech at the table in God’s household. |
Finally, Clinton and Obama score the same on the God-O-Meter, which also notes that Clinton leads among born-again Christians.
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| r_kamikaze wrote: | | Everytime I see you post I just wanna punch someone. |
| stromboli wrote: | | As always, you make meaningful and thoughtful contributions to the forum. |
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chrisreid
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Obama's statements made me happy. He knows what he's talking about. I'd rather him over Clinton and I'd much rather him over Mccain.
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