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Chaoslord2004
Logician
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 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: |
On a different note, but related, this is why logic cannot adequately describe reality. |
It was never meant to. All it describes is the relationships between propositions. Thats it.
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An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: |
On a different note, but related, this is why logic cannot adequately describe reality. |
It was never meant to. All it describes is the relationships between propositions. Thats it. |
That is true, but those relationships do matter as propositions are thoughts, and it is through thoughts that we come to understand reality. And so to what extent, if any, are propositions related to reality? -- and certainly, that question would lie outside the realm of logic, but it still needs to be adressed. Otherwise, superstitions are just as legitimate... |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 11:03 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: |
On a different note, but related, this is why logic cannot adequately describe reality. |
It was never meant to. All it describes is the relationships between propositions. Thats it. |
That is true, but those relationships do matter as propositions are thoughts, and it is through thoughts that we come to understand reality. And so to what extent, if any, are propositions related to reality? -- and certainly, that question would lie outside the realm of logic, but it still needs to be adressed. Otherwise, superstitions are just as legitimate... |
Well, propositions are those things which are true or false, depending upon the state of affairs.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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Gettin' In Tune
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Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | Homo Sapiens have the 'natural rights' to DO and BELIEVE anything their individual or collective groups can accomplish, including trying to enforce certain behaviors in their societies by claiming that only a certain subset of these 'rights', are actually 'natural rights', bestowed by some mystical creator or 'providence', even though that is complete bullshit, and a fallacious appeal to an imaginary authority. |
Your argument is a strawman. I never once talked about a creator or appealed to a natural authority. I supposed you have never heard of Rand, Kant, or Rothbard.
I don't want to delve into a mythical creator with you, but I just wanted to point out your strawman.
| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Can you logically explain why someone else should have ownership to your labor? |
| Quote: | | Because it is a normative cultural practice where you were raised and you agree to it. |
So it takes your agreement, so therefore it took your individual concession of an a priori right.
| Quote: | | Because the 'owners' will punish you if you don't agree to it, and you prefer them owning your labor, versus the punishment. |
I still don't see how that is a logical argument for slavery.
Last edited by Gettin' In Tune on Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gettin' In Tune
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | Gettin' In Tune wrote: | Can you logically prove that natural rights exists, such as life, liberty, property? Is individual ownership a priori true or is it granted by the masses or a ruler.
Can you logically explain why someone else should have ownership to your labor? |
These get into ethics, which I am not well versed in. |
Shouldn't ethics be constrained by logic or are you just being a purest? |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 11:03 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Gettin' In Tune wrote: | | Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | Gettin' In Tune wrote: | Can you logically prove that natural rights exists, such as life, liberty, property? Is individual ownership a priori true or is it granted by the masses or a ruler.
Can you logically explain why someone else should have ownership to your labor? |
These get into ethics, which I am not well versed in. |
Shouldn't ethics be constrained by logic or are you just being a purest? |
It has nothing to do with being a purest. I find ethics extremely boring, so I haven't studied it beyond my Intro to Ethics course. Does logic constrain ethics? Well, in the sense that ethical propositions are constrained to a degree. Since ethicists make arguments, one must rely on logic.
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An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Game theory, motherfuckers...
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
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Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Game theory, motherfuckers... |
I've done SOME work in that area...not a lot.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Game theory, motherfuckers... |
I've done SOME work in that area...not a lot. |
its an interesting intersection of ethics and logic.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 11:03 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Chaoslord2004 wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Game theory, motherfuckers... |
I've done SOME work in that area...not a lot. |
its an interesting intersection of ethics and logic. |
that, and decision theory. The great John Van Nuemann practically invented the field...game theory that is.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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is he (Van Nuemann) also the one that came up with a bunch of computer architecture?
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Chaoslord2004
Logician
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 8411
Local time: 11:03 AM
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | is he (Van Nuemann) also the one that came up with a bunch of computer architecture? |
Yup. He was a brilliant mathematician and logician (I probably spelled his name wrong).
He use to come to class, down a bottle of whiskey and lecture of quantum mechanics.
_________________
An artist sees beauty in a painting. I see beauty in a logical proof.
"All error is due to extraneous factors, reason itself does not err"
~Kurt Gödel |
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