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Dawkadoodle
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 Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| baddogma wrote: |
You can borrow mine. |
No thanks, you can keep your murder tools to yourself. |
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Wickedtruth wrote: | | Rortykiller wrote: | Christians are always using Faith as a reason.
They say, I'm pro-life.
You ask why.
They say, BECAUSE I HAVE FAITH
That doesn't answer the question. Thats literally saying I believe because I believe. Yet they say it like thats a real argument. We know you have faith in stupid shit, I asked you why |
Abortion, at least according to Christian scripture, is the most humane thing you can do. Baby is killed, gets a insta pass to heaven. Let the baby live, he might learn free thinking and explore other things. He probably ends up in hell. Abortion=the most humane thing ever, at least according to Christian logic. |
No, that isn't Xtian logic, that is logic seen on forums, probably some atheists' but not atheistic 
Life is greatly desired by the Xtians to fulfill their purpose for being created. Also for some there is no instant pass since some believe the person has to be baptized. So your reasoning wouldn't work in cases where there was no baptism of the foetus. |
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
Life is greatly desired by the Xtians to fulfill their purpose for being created. |
Huh?
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LakeGeorgeMan wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: |
Life is greatly desired by the Xtians to fulfill their purpose for being created. |
Huh? |
Ok, Catholics, but they are Xtians too |
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Hit_me_up024
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone heard this argument before? |
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| greyghost wrote: | I would not say I'm religious... I would simply tell you that I have a relationship with God. Christian is not a religion, religion is the belief and worship of a god, Christianity, though often practiced as a religion is actually a relationship.
Honestly, where the hell do they come up with this stuff? Do Xtians have some sort of fallacy making machine we don't know about? |
that is possibly the best way a thiest could get out of a embarrassing situation.
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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| greyghost wrote: | I would not say I'm religious... I would simply tell you that I have a relationship with God. Christian is not a religion, religion is the belief and worship of a god, Christianity, though often practiced as a religion is actually a relationship.
Honestly, where the hell do they come up with this stuff? Do Xtians have some sort of fallacy making machine we don't know about? |
Calling a bag of fresh dogshit a tulip doesn't make it stop stinking.
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caseagainstfaith
God's gift to atheism
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read the whole thread, seeing it was instantaneously derailed by Dawk. But, to the OP, yeah, I've heard it many times. People who say that are trying to say something along the lines of, "'religion' is following specific set of practices, be it baptism, communion, confession, etc. while they have (allegedly) a different, personal bond with their deity" Of course, that's bullshit, but, that is what they seem to think they are saying.
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | | greyghost wrote: | I would not say I'm religious... I would simply tell you that I have a relationship with God. Christian is not a religion, religion is the belief and worship of a god, Christianity, though often practiced as a religion is actually a relationship.
Honestly, where the hell do they come up with this stuff? Do Xtians have some sort of fallacy making machine we don't know about? |
Calling a bag of fresh dogshit a tulip doesn't make it stop stinking. |
Dogshit comes in bags now? Neat!
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone heard this argument before? |
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| greyghost wrote: | | ShaSha wrote: | | greyghost wrote: | I would not say I'm religious... I would simply tell you that I have a relationship with God. Christian is not a religion, religion is the belief and worship of a god, Christianity, though often practiced as a religion is actually a relationship.
Honestly, where the hell do they come up with this stuff? Do Xtians have some sort of fallacy making machine we don't know about? |
We are on the rise of being individuals so yes, you are going to hear it more and more. Atheists aren't the only ones that can't be herded. People are individuals. Why do you think there are so many religions which indeed are not the same as having a "relationship" |
Care to explain with more detail? I'm interested in what you mean by "on the rise of being individuals"?
Anyway, the man I had the argument with (I wouldn't call it a debate), seems to very much believe that the bible is the word of "God" and such. He goes to church every Sunday so he told me, so I'm thinking he merely thought it was a good rebuttal to a point I made a few moments before. |
When some people say they believe that the bible is the word of god, they don't always mean every word literally. Just throwing that in as an aside. I would ask the person more questions in a friendly sort of way. Only he or she can really give you the answer you are looking for in that case.
Now on individuals, go to any church and take a poll and you will not get people agreeing on all things. When it comes to their personal lives, they choose to have a personal relationship with god as their guidance and church is separate from that. Church, religion, is the building to some, it is the body of people to others or the group with the same name. But none of them will claim it to be the all in all with god. The personal is important and the bible emphasizes letting the holy spirit guide the individual for a closer relationship than a general one.
That doesn't apply to fundies who are really the minority. I am speaking of the mainstream theists.
Many former theists like to use the word sheep for theists because they were blindly following their religion. I'd even say that was me up to a certain point. But when I questioned it and no longer followed it blindly, then I could say it was a personal relationship because it wasn't based on faith or tradition or family etc. Many of the theists I knew who came to self realization stayed within their churches or similar ones for practical reasons which are many and varied. They will frequently state that they are spiritual but not religious which is what I have stated about myself for about 35 years. It isn't a cop out, it is a choice and a valid one.
I do not walk to any body else's drum nor would I want them to walk to mine. Sheeple are still in religions but there are also many atheists who are sheeple. Individuals aren't people who come to same conclusions. Individuals are people who have self realization and find great joy in that. For some a deity is still part for others there is none. The imiportant thing though is each chose after analysis. |
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romans120
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Anyone heard this argument before? |
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| greyghost wrote: | I would not say I'm religious... I would simply tell you that I have a relationship with God. Christian is not a religion, religion is the belief and worship of a god, Christianity, though often practiced as a religion is actually a relationship.
Honestly, where the hell do they come up with this stuff? Do Xtians have some sort of fallacy making machine we don't know about? |
Yeah it is used a lot. In fact we Christians have quotas as to how often we work it into our conversations every month. Meeting the quota doesn't help us get to heaven of course just gives us gift shop credit to spend once we get there. I wouldn't worry about it though its not really aimed at all you non-believing lacking faith types. Its really more designed for those who think getting to heaven is based on brownie points
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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It's interesting how some religious words have broadly positive meanings in everyday speech, including "holy, "god", "christian" (as in "that's very christian of you"). Most, however, seem to have become almost exclusively used as put-downs in every day speech, no more so than when used by theists themselves, including "faith", "belief", "worship" and the word "religion" itself.
I wonder why that is.
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Basilosaur
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| If everyone doesn't believe in the same things doesn't it mean that god is incompetent in making us understand? |
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Anyone heard this argument before? |
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| ShaSha wrote: |
Now on individuals, go to any church and take a poll and you will not get people agreeing on all things. When it comes to their personal lives, they choose to have a personal relationship with god as their guidance and church is separate from that. Church, religion, is the building to some, it is the body of people to others or the group with the same name. But none of them will claim it to be the all in all with god. The personal is important and the bible emphasizes letting the holy spirit guide the individual for a closer relationship than a general one.
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Which of course is utter nonsense and the type of empty, meaningless religious rhetoric that Rickyroma has been refering to. Again, 'holy spirit' is simply a pious term for my own personal 'conscience'. And human beings have diverse genetic differences, and on-going, diverse life experiences, that influence their personal development, and that cause them to have diverse beliefs and opinions about life and human behaviors and 'good' and 'bad'.
So pretending that there is a magical, invisible, consistent, 'holy spirit', that invades the minds of faithful Christians or new age theists, and gives them some special insight or marching orders or decision making ability, is the kind of ignorant, superstitious nonsense that is only tolerated because of it's ingrained pious tradition.
If instead of 'holy spirit', I went around claiming I was having a relationship with an invisible magical fairy named 'Claude', who invades my brain and takes it over and speaks to me and guides me...
...I would be institutionalized.
But change 'Claude' to 'God'...and 'invisible magical fairy' to 'holy spirit', and this nonsense suddenly becomes not only tolerated and perfectly sane, but actually a kind of 'virtue', that is supposed to be 'admired', because the purveyor of the nonsense is allegedly 'deeply spiritual'...(a.k.a. insane)...for uttering it.
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That doesn't apply to fundies who are really the minority. I am speaking of the mainstream theists.
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'mainstream theist' is an meaningless as 'mainstream voter' or 'mainstream women' or 'mainstream bike rider'.
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Many former theists like to use the word sheep for theists because they were blindly following their religion. I'd even say that was me up to a certain point. But when I questioned it and no longer followed it blindly, then I could say it was a personal relationship because it wasn't based on faith or tradition or family etc.
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No...all it is...is your 'personal religion'...your new and improved personal version of god...borrowed and then molded into an image that satisfies YOU in some way.
You're not having any kind of 'relationship' with anything other than your own mind.
Here's a simple test to keep in mind for the word 'relationship'...
If you're having a 'relationship' with someone...you should be able to invite some friends and family over to have dinner with the two of you., and the friends should all be able to ask your 'friend' the same questions and hear the same answers.
In the meantime, the way religion evolves as a memeplex, is when people like you take some previous cultural concepts of gods, their attributes, their abilities, their likes and dislikes, the rituals required to please them...
...and simply modifies them in some way, and then tries to convince others that they should adopt these modifications in their defition of their personal gods.
You're simply a faulty memeplex copying machine. Best to come to grips with that.
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greyghost
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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ShaSha, you try to point out that most "mainstream" theists don't take the bible seriously.
Well, if by "mainstream" you mean "popular" or "modern", then I think you would be wrong. Almost the majority of theists I have come across, both online and in person, honestly consider the bible to be the literal word of god. Every page, every verse. My sister is a catholic and she would say that she takes the biblical account of genesis seriously. Of course she would, if she didn't then wouldn't that make the whole of Christianity meaningless? But right, Adam & Eve is nothing more then....a parable? Or just symbolic? Representing the "sins" in all of us? I tried telling her that, and she returned with, "well, that doesn't sound nearly as meaningful." No, it doesn't.
Unless by "mainstream" you meant "learned" or "educated". As in, actually read the bible and know there are certain things that just make little sense or are horrid?
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LakeGeorgeMan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| greyghost wrote: | ShaSha, you try to point out that most "mainstream" theists don't take the bible seriously.
Well, if by "mainstream" you mean "popular" or "modern", then I think you would be wrong. Almost the majority of theists I have come across, both online and in person, honestly consider the bible to be the literal word of god. Every page, every verse. My sister is a catholic and she would say that she takes the biblical account of genesis seriously. Of course she would, if she didn't then wouldn't that make the whole of Christianity meaningless? But right, Adam & Eve is nothing more then....a parable? Or just symbolic? Representing the "sins" in all of us? I tried telling her that, and she returned with, "well, that doesn't sound nearly as meaningful." No, it doesn't.
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This is an excellent point greyghost, and one not lost on the fundys who rail against the science of evolution.
If the first immortal man was not specially created in the image of the one true god, in the garden, as detailed in the Genesis mythology...and if this first man, and his afterthought, naive helpmeet, weren't seduced by a 'talking snake', and didn't eat the 'forbiden fruit', by which 'sin' and 'death' entered the world, then all the rest of ancient Christian salvation theology, that is built on top of, and designed to 'solve the problem' of, that ignorant, erroneous, now laughable, myth...
...completely loses it's foundation and becomes meaningless as well.
We were taught that we were 'fallen' beings, specially made in the image of god...
...and we came to discover we are simply 'risen' primates, that evolved the ability to walk upright, and tell stories....about mythical gods.
Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.
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