Antinatalism

Philosophos · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: Antinatalism

Antinatalism is the view that it is wrong to procreate. I was personally first made aware of this view by Hookflash on the old IG forums. This view was most recently defended by David Benatar in his book Better To Never Have Been, with roots in Schopenhauer. The argument is involved (in order to defend against defeaters), but can be distilled to an informal syllogism:

1) It is wrong to inflict harm
2) Bringing a being into existence inflicts harm (both immediately and down the road) that could have otherwise been avoided
3) Thus, it is wrong to bring a being into existence

There are two common objections I've seen to this argument. The first is that the argument is asymmetrical; is it also good to bring pleasure, and bringing a being into existence also brings pleasure. The second is that the antinatalist view ultimately can entail promortalism - the view that it is a moral imperative to kill beings in order to reduce future harm.

There are other possible objections, including a metaethical attack on the utilitarian approach that this argument is obviously based upon, as well as the "b-b-b-but babies are so cute, and humanity's so great!!!" view (I'm clearly not symathetic to the latter).

Personally, I am sympathetic to this view, but have not given it much thought overall. What do you think?

(To read a little more about antinatalism, I've found a blog here that gives a decent overview, although the writing is extremely pretentious. Also, as a bonus for you libertarians out there, part 2 of the essay brings Rothbard into the discussion)
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Shiranu · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am Post subject:

Myself, I picked "For many people, yes. But if there's a good chance of a charmed life, a person may procreate ethically".

Why? Because if you cant support your kid to the fullest, cant make sure it gets a proper education, make sure it can think for its self, make sure it will never have to worry about food/entertainment/etc intil lits living on its own, and when its living on its own you will have instilled enough of a work ethic for it to survive and provide for its self and its family... you have no right to be having a kid. Im surrounded by fucking morons whos parents should have NEVER had a kid, because they dont CARE if their kids starved, never had a blip of joy in their life, etc, they just do it for the fun of sex, people to take care of them and their chores, and tax exemptions.

Although, being surrounded by these people has made me very cynical of who should and shouldn't be procreating.
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hillbillyatheist · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:29 am Post subject:

the question to ask is how many people regret being born? I'd say not many. so this idea of having kids being immoral doesn't hold water to me.

besides what is the point of morality, other than to help us as a species get along and cooperate with each other to our mutual benefit?

how would not having kids help our species survive? it wouldn't. it would refute the whole reason for morality, imo.

transientangent · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:22 am Post subject:

A hard life can still be a good life. I think the matter is more contingent upon what sort of parents your hypothetical couple would be. Decadence does not imply a life well lived and poverty does not imply a lfe with love, friends, and character. If you're not going to give your children everything then you've sort of lost the biological motivation already.
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atheod · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Antinatalism

Hit_me_up024 · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject:

no offense intended but whats the purpose of this thread? The sexual desire to pro-create is natural, why should that be righ or wrong? shouldnt it just be. There are always going to be different levels of society, thats no reason to not pro-create. No reproduction the species will eventually become extinct. Its a proven fact that each dominating species always has a demise and eventually dissapears
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Philosophos · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject:

PJS · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject:

Morality as a timeless, general moral law seems to break down. Individuals deal with specific problems in particular circumstances. One can imagine circumstances where the likely harm may justify not bringing beings into the world. However, the specific details of one's situation can not be trivialized. The experimentalist in me would compare the procreative decision to a hypothesis- one whose outcome may be difficult to predict.

Wouldn't many or most acts in this world bring with them the potential for harm to someone, or some being, in some way? If this is enough to preclude an act, we may not be left with much.
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Philosophos · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject:

Shiranu · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject:

PJS · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject:

Philosophos · Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject:

Raskolnikov · Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:18 am Post subject:

Procreation is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. I don't think morals have anything to do with it.
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past_thinker · Visitor Joined: 09 Dec 2008 Posts: 1 Local time: 12:02 PM

Let me preface this by saying that I don't think we should all just up and kill ourselves, or even that very miserable individuals should commit suicide. I do feel that those of us who are here might as well try to make the best of it... life can be good, can be wonderful even after we might have passed through some pretty awful times. Ultimately, I believe a person has the right to take his own life, but generally speaking, I don't think people should. Also, there's always the potential problem with suicide that the attempt will fail, but not completely. That is, it will leave you worse off than before. I don't know how foolproof any suicide method is. But a miserable person can usually take action to try to improve his life.

Also, while here people might as well try to help others.

Now, to answer the question: in my view, procreation is wrong.

lumpymunk · Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject:

Like Rask, I don't really consider the question within the realm of Morality. Could it be that there are just a group of people attempting to moralize a subject that has nothing to do with morality? (kinda like Christians do with Pre-marital sex)

1) Future pain and future pleasure are both guaranteed, no reason to emphasize one, and there is no way to gauge which will outweigh the other. It's as bad as centrally planned government, no one has the resources to make those kinds of decisions "Oh, you'll have kids... but not you."
2) Pain isn't always painful, a lot of life's greatest personal growth periods are accompanied by great pains. I.e., pain is often good.
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