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tonyman1989
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Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
really, I heard steve irwin was a Humanist but wasn't a atheist.
_________________
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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Isambard
Forum Leader
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 892
Local time: 11:26 AM
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
You can have religious Humanists such as certain liberal christian groups, buddhists, hindus etc.
Atheism is not synonymous with humanism as one is just a descriptive word while the other an ideology. Its true you can be an atheist and a humanist, but being one doesnt mean youll automatically be the other. |
Definition: Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality.
Now how do you reconcile that with a religious belief of God? |
The religious groups I mentioned above would agree with said definition being entirely true. Therefore they would be classified as humanists as well.
_________________
Composite things are like dreams. Fantasies. Bubbles. Thoughts. Like a dewdrop and a flash of lightning. A new dress and a burning tire. Waves of sand and sinking ships. The shadow of a statue, and an entry in a diary. A brain tumor and an ice cream sundae. We are thus to be recorded. |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
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Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Isambard wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
You can have religious Humanists such as certain liberal christian groups, buddhists, hindus etc.
Atheism is not synonymous with humanism as one is just a descriptive word while the other an ideology. Its true you can be an atheist and a humanist, but being one doesnt mean youll automatically be the other. |
Definition: Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality.
Now how do you reconcile that with a religious belief of God? |
The religious groups I mentioned above would agree with said definition being entirely true. Therefore they would be classified as humanists as well. |
The problem with these groups is that they fail to understand the meaning of rationality since their belief in God is irrational. |
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Isambard
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 892
Local time: 11:26 AM
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| josephpalazzo wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | josephpalazzo wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
You can have religious Humanists such as certain liberal christian groups, buddhists, hindus etc.
Atheism is not synonymous with humanism as one is just a descriptive word while the other an ideology. Its true you can be an atheist and a humanist, but being one doesnt mean youll automatically be the other. |
Definition: Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality.
Now how do you reconcile that with a religious belief of God? |
The religious groups I mentioned above would agree with said definition being entirely true. Therefore they would be classified as humanists as well. |
The problem with these groups is that they fail to understand the meaning of rationality since their belief in God is irrational. |
what does that have to do with humanism?
_________________
Composite things are like dreams. Fantasies. Bubbles. Thoughts. Like a dewdrop and a flash of lightning. A new dress and a burning tire. Waves of sand and sinking ships. The shadow of a statue, and an entry in a diary. A brain tumor and an ice cream sundae. We are thus to be recorded. |
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Paranoia21
Weird Fish
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 1216
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Do you know the definition of a Humanist?
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VERITAS OMNIA VINCIT
Keep YOUR religion in YOUR churches and YOUR homes and out of OUR government. |
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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4683
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Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
If he wants to argue that an ideology can have a basis hard-to-deny observation then I will agree with him. If he wants to say that all ideologies are equal by virtue of being ideologies, I will not agree.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23071
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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As Carl Sagan said "Ideas are NOT all equal. There ARE good ideas and BAD ideas. Its perfectly okay, and indeed, necessary, to make those kinds of distinctions."
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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kmisho
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I suppose you can be a humanist and an atheist....but I'm also sure there are some Jewish Nazi's out there somewhere.
"Humanism" is not the best word for it anyway because it implies that anything not human doesn't count, which isn't true.
Anyway, god is irrelevant if you're really a humanist, whether you believe in him or not.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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josephpalazzo
Illusion Master
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 8036
Local time: 11:26 AM
Location: D-brane
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: |
Anyway, god is irrelevant if you're really a humanist, whether you believe in him or not. |
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Isambard
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Posts: 892
Local time: 11:26 AM
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
If he wants to argue that an ideology can have a basis hard-to-deny observation then I will agree with him. If he wants to say that all ideologies are equal by virtue of being ideologies, I will not agree. |
Id say what constitues a good idea or a bad one is completely dependant on what your goals are. So in the end what is 'better' is all relative.
_________________
Composite things are like dreams. Fantasies. Bubbles. Thoughts. Like a dewdrop and a flash of lightning. A new dress and a burning tire. Waves of sand and sinking ships. The shadow of a statue, and an entry in a diary. A brain tumor and an ice cream sundae. We are thus to be recorded. |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 23071
Local time: 11:26 AM
Location: Warner Robins, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Well, when the goal is the explanation of reality, of finding truth, then i'd say science is the superior set of ideas. its far more effective and successful than any other system yet devised.
_________________
-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
www.Moloth.com
Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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tonyman1989
Forum Master
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2461
Local time: 12:26 PM
Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | I suppose you can be a humanist and an atheist....but I'm also sure there are some Jewish Nazi's out there somewhere.
"Humanism" is not the best word for it anyway because it implies that anything not human doesn't count, which isn't true.
Anyway, god is irrelevant if you're really a humanist, whether you believe in him or not. |
what about a humanist and a theist?
_________________
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4683
Local time: 2:26 AM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| tonyman1989 wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | I suppose you can be a humanist and an atheist....but I'm also sure there are some Jewish Nazi's out there somewhere.
"Humanism" is not the best word for it anyway because it implies that anything not human doesn't count, which isn't true.
Anyway, god is irrelevant if you're really a humanist, whether you believe in him or not. |
what about a humanist and a theist? |
My typo. I meant 'humanist and theist.' It's humanism and theism that can be reconciled but leaves the believer with a pointless god.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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kmisho
Stochastic
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 4683
Local time: 2:26 AM
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Moloth wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | | Isambard wrote: | | Funny, you sound exactly like a theist promoting his/her own religion. The problem of religion is the problem of any ideology. By promoting 'atheism' as superior to theism, you are merely saying your ideology is better than another's, which at the end is very ironic and humorous |
And what you're doing is like laughing at someone who offers someone with polio a polio vaccine rather than prayer.
When religion starts to work, you can make that argument. Until then, materialistic naturalistic atheism wins hands down. |
I was pting that atheism has no intrinsic values to speak of. It is merely disbelief in an active patriartical deity. What he was promoting was a form of Humanism which would be then an ideology v. another ideology, not a instrinsic superiority of atheistic 'lifestyle'. |
But Humanism is atheistic. |
If he wants to argue that an ideology can have a basis hard-to-deny observation then I will agree with him. If he wants to say that all ideologies are equal by virtue of being ideologies, I will not agree. |
Id say what constitues a good idea or a bad one is completely dependant on what your goals are. So in the end what is 'better' is all relative. |
Relative yes, but relative to what? Demonstrable criteria or bullshit magical claims? Don't confuse relativity with subjectivity.
_________________
K Michau
Now this religion happens to prevail/Until by that one it is overthrown/Because men dare not live with men alone/But always with another fairy tale.
al-Ma'arri, Syrian Poet, died 1057
You deny the existence of 999 alleged Gods. I merely deny one more - yours.
John MacKinnon Robertson, "Godism" 1896
"Never is a long time." Robert Fripp, 1998
Poetry, Art, Music |
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| Back to top |
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tonyman1989
Forum Master
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 2461
Local time: 12:26 PM
Location: I was hoping you could tell me.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| kmisho wrote: | | tonyman1989 wrote: | | kmisho wrote: | I suppose you can be a humanist and an atheist....but I'm also sure there are some Jewish Nazi's out there somewhere.
"Humanism" is not the best word for it anyway because it implies that anything not human doesn't count, which isn't true.
Anyway, god is irrelevant if you're really a humanist, whether you believe in him or not. |
what about a humanist and a theist? |
My typo. I meant 'humanist and theist.' It's humanism and theism that can be reconciled but leaves the believer with a pointless god. |
what do you mean by "pointless god". I didn't think humanism had much to do with god?
_________________
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For then we will know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes." Richard Dawkins
http://www.atheistforums.com/weblog.php?w=22 Tonyman1989 blog's - updated on 8/28/07 - An interview of steven weinberg on religion |
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