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Eyedunno
The Great JuJu at the Bottom of the Sea
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think panentheism works something like this:
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ShaSha
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Eyedunno wrote: | I think panentheism works something like this:
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Good one! |
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Gettin' In Tune
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Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| I really want to play. I just want to say "god did it", kick you in the shins and run away. Do I have to rely on the bible? |
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BarkAtTheMoon
O Captain, my Captain
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 4914
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Location: Wilmington, DE
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ShaSha wrote: | | BarkAtTheMoon wrote: | They they can just say "I don't know" and there's always that chance they could come back into the fold so they don't get ostracized by family & others as much. They've been engrained with that oh so lovely prejudice that atheists=evil=satanists and you can't be moral without a god.
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You made that up BAtM! 
While some might fit that, it really is a time for searching and a time for taking our own. That you and others chose atheism isn't a feather in your cap other than it is what felt best for you and what you found the best evidence for.
When will individual truly be understood? When that happens, "Then peace will guide the planets And love will steer the stars" ")
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Huh? I have no clue what you're talking about here.
Actually, I and others, from what I've heard from other people on the forum, chose atheism because intellectually there really was no choice at all. Do you really think atheists want their family to think they're going to hell, to be made to feel disenfranchised by our own "secular" government, and to generally take shit from people just for not believing in a certain magic entity? It's similar to the argument about whether homosexuals choose to be so or just are. Who would choose to be a hated outcast if they really had a choice?
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Seriously, where in logic and reason does generalization fit in? It is the hardest habit that I as a human have had to break. We are taught to speak in generalizations from birth, through school and onward if we are among the misfortunate. Some theists label atheists to their children and through their churches. Some atheists label theists to their children in their attitudes and mark them as a tad or more unintelligent.
But you don't know which theists have prejudices towards atheists until you actually encounter them. And I suspect that a lot of it is how you yourself are presenting yourself that day.
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Sweet merciful crap, Sha. Do we really need to drag out all the statistics about anti-atheist sentiment in America, how a former president said during campaigning that atheists shouldn't be considered citizens or patriots, the Gallup polls saying over 50% of Americans would refuse to vote for a qualified atheist of their own party to an elected office just because he's an atheist, the numerous state constitutions that say that same atheist can't even run for office in the first place, the many horror stories from forum members about their family and friends reactions or receiving death threats, all the quotes from different religious texts describing what should be done with unbelievers, etc. etc. etc., every freaking time this subject is brought up? I could swear I've had this exact same discussion, or one shockingly similar, with you before. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I could safely assume this was common knowledge on this board.
Show of hands for a quick random sample, how many atheists here have been ostracized by their family or friends, been called evil or satanists, been told you're going to hell, been preached to by coworkers to "save your soul" or been told you can't be moral without god? Or am I just full of shit and made it all up?
Of course, not every theist is a douchebag to atheists for being atheists. Nobody ever said they were, and it's a strawman for you to suggest I did. I actually have faced very little of it myself because a) I don't wear my atheism on my sleeve outside of this forum, b) I've never talked about it to my family, mostly cause I know my grandparents would be upset and it's just not something that comes up or is anyone else's business, and c) as I already mentioned, I live in the northeast where most people, especially the ones I tend to be around, really don't give a shit about religion one way or the other. I have been preached to by coworkers, heard the line that morality comes from God numerous times, in addition to all the political BS we all deal with, though. But, a huge number of theists in this country are openly anti-atheist, it's often perfectly acceptable for them to have that prejudice, and from what I know through all my discussions with people online and research I've done a majority of atheists have experienced a lot of these prejudices, and the stats, data, evidence, and personal stories all support that.
Where do you live? Not specifics, but U.S.? If so, what region: northeast, Bible Belt, west coast, etc? You'd really have to live in your own little world if you don't think this attitude is very prevelent, even the accepted norm in many areas of this country and many whole countries around the world. You can't possibly be that naive.
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"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
"I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I just noticed this. I'd be willing to do it, but don't have much time. Thus, I'd only be able to engage in an informal one-on-one; I can't do a formal debate right now. I'd also like to call it off after a while, as I don't want it to drag on for too long. If you're looking for something more involved, I'm afraid I can't commit right now.
What kind of atheist do you plan on being? Minimal atheist ("I don't believe in a God" - if so, strong atheist, weak atheist, or noncognitivist?), naturalist (the positive belief that the natural world is all there is), or something else with a bit more baggage (e.g. Marxist)?
Also, I'd need to know what kind of theist you want me to be (Calvinist, Catholic, liberal Christian, etc.), and what approach you want me to take (jesusismyhero-like, Josh McDowell-esque, philosophically-bent, presuppositionalistic, etc.). I need to know these things since I don't have my own theistic position to defend - I'm not a theist.
I could also not "play" a theist with a specific positive position and just throw the kitchen sink at you in terms of various arguments, and see how well you rebut. It then wouldn't be so much a debate as a simple parrying session. I'd give you random theistic argument x, you rebut, and I counter-rebut.
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
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Local time: 9:59 AM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | I just noticed this. I'd be willing to do it, but don't have much time. Thus, I'd only be able to engage in an informal one-on-one; I can't do a formal debate right now. I'd also like to call it off after a while, as I don't want it to drag on for too long. If you're looking for something more involved, I'm afraid I can't commit right now.
What kind of atheist do you plan on being? Minimal atheist ("I don't believe in a God" - if so, strong atheist, weak atheist, or noncognitivist?), naturalist (the positive belief that the natural world is all there is), or something else with a bit more baggage (e.g. Marxist)?
Also, I'd need to know what kind of theist you want me to be (Calvinist, Catholic, liberal Christian, etc.), and what approach you want me to take (jesusismyhero-like, Josh McDowell-esque, philosophically-bent, presuppositionalistic, etc.). I need to know these things since I don't have my own theistic position to defend - I'm not a theist.
I could also not "play" a theist with a specific positive position and just throw the kitchen sink at you in terms of various arguments, and see how well you rebut. It then wouldn't be so much a debate as a simple parrying session. I'd give you random theistic argument x, you rebut, and I counter-rebut. |
Ok sounds good. I'm not up for any discussion that is too time consuming either. As far as your theological position whatever your most readily familiar with would be fine. Just post what theological position your taking. An evidentiary position might get us on rabbit trails that we both disagree with. I think one argument at a time is definitely the way to go. So I'm ready to begin the discussion when your ready
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/
Last edited by romans120 on Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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this is just... kinky.
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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romans120
Resident Theist
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Local time: 9:59 AM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Moloth wrote: | | this is just... kinky. |
fixed now so as not to be perverted by your debauched minds
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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Moloth
Coin Operated Boy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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-=The Believer is Happy; the Skeptic is Wise=-
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Last edited by Moloth on Tue Feb 30, 2026 13:61 am; edited 426 times in total |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Wait: so do you want me to play a role with a specific theological position, or do you just want me to post some major arguments of various flavors and you'll try to rebut them? Am I playing a character with specific beliefs, or am I just pitching some major arguments to see how you respond? IOW, informal debate, or sounding board?
If it's the former, it'll be a discussion. I'll start with "Hi, I'm a theist who believes X for a few reasons...." Those reasons would be coherent (e.g. I won't use positive theology if I'm a presuppositionalist).
If it's the latter, I'll take a hodge-podge of specific arguments and toss them at you one at a time for discussion: e.g. "Argument 1: The Kalam cosmological argument...." I clearly won't be role-playing in this case, but would still be free to counter-rebut.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'.
Last edited by Philosophos on Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 10:59 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Wait: so do you want me to play a role with a specific theological position, or do you just want me to post some major arguments of various flavors and you'll try to rebut them? IOW, informal debate, or sounding board? |
I asked those questions pages ago.
I'm thinking he isnt sure he wants to do it... he wants to see if we'd do it. Afterall he could go to a christian board and do what he wants to do. Or even go to a neutral board like startrek.com's forum or something. who have christians posts frequently.
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A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
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Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Philosophos wrote: | | Wait: so do you want me to play a role with a specific theological position, or do you just want me to post some major arguments of various flavors and you'll try to rebut them? Am I playing a character with specific beliefs, or am I just pitching some major arguments to see how you respond? IOW, informal debate, or sounding board? |
no you don't have to play the part as if you believed it just limit the arguments to a specific theological system. I think You may have mentioned recently your specialty was eastern orthodox I think that would do fine. If we hit any points that you are not reasonably certain how a typical eastern orthodox would respond we can just end the argument there. If it isn't working either one of us can end this exercise whenever. how does this sound?
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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romans120
Resident Theist
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
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Local time: 9:59 AM
Location: The God Shaped Hole in Your Heart
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| munky99999 wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Wait: so do you want me to play a role with a specific theological position, or do you just want me to post some major arguments of various flavors and you'll try to rebut them? IOW, informal debate, or sounding board? |
I asked those questions pages ago.
I'm thinking he isnt sure he wants to do it... he wants to see if we'd do it. Afterall he could go to a christian board and do what he wants to do. Or even go to a neutral board like startrek.com's forum or something. who have christians posts frequently. |
no if I'm going to make the atheist argument I want everybody involved to know it's just for fun. (i'm not sure if this will work or not but if philosophos is willing to try so am I)
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For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20
Check out my weblog at http://romans120.wordpress.com/ |
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munky99999
Provisional moralist.
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 4671
Local time: 10:59 AM
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: | | munky99999 wrote: | | Philosophos wrote: | | Wait: so do you want me to play a role with a specific theological position, or do you just want me to post some major arguments of various flavors and you'll try to rebut them? IOW, informal debate, or sounding board? |
I asked those questions pages ago.
I'm thinking he isnt sure he wants to do it... he wants to see if we'd do it. Afterall he could go to a christian board and do what he wants to do. Or even go to a neutral board like startrek.com's forum or something. who have christians posts frequently. |
no if I'm going to make the atheist argument I want everybody involved to know it's just for fun. (i'm not sure if this will work or not but if philosophos is willing to try so am I) |
I am willing to try also... but you'd be arguing against an inquisition leader...
fffarrr far worse than the liberal bible believing westboro church.
_________________
A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his fleshand drink his blood; while telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
You cant outsmart me; you can only outnumber me. |
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Philosophos
Do it
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 9289
Local time: 11:59 AM
Location: Where Scum Are
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| romans120 wrote: |
no you don't have to play the part as if you believed it just limit the arguments to a specific theological system. I think You may have mentioned recently your specialty was eastern orthodox I think that would do fine. If we hit any points that you are not reasonably certain how a typical eastern orthodox would respond we can just end the argument there. If it isn't working either one of us can end this exercise whenever. how does this sound? |
That would make sense if we were doing theist-on-theist. But I'm not sure it works otherwise. I'd be giving arguments for a specific theological system, and you'd be arguing against no system at all. There's no point in trying to convince an atheist of Arminianism when the atheist doesn't believe in God in the first place.
If there's no role-play involved, I think it'd be best if I just give you arguments for the existence of God in general, then you rebut, we discuss, and move on to the next argument.
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The whores and politicians will shout 'save us'...
...and I'll whisper 'no'. |
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