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Castro
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 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: 1st of many questions... |
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First of all, I am only putting this in the Christianity section b/c that is the belief I know most about and like I said in my introduction, have been raised in Christianity for well, I am 26 now.
"You have to put your faith in God b/c he(he only used in the masculate sense, not reference to sex) knows what is best and has a plan for you"
This is probably the best answer that a devote Christian can come up with when I ask about why we should believe and pray to God/Jesus. I do have to admit that I have believed for a very long time and I have had bad things happen to me and good things happen to me. When something good happened it was God blessing me, but when something bad happened, it was b/c I was being tested or b/c I was not being "faithful".
Sorry for being long winded but I guess my 1st question is, what do Atheists believe in? I mean as far as morals and such goes. Christains supposedly have morals b/c of their belief/faith in God, so they are governed by a set of rules. This is what keeps them moral. Without these "rules", such as Atheists live w/o, what kind of morals do they have?
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1st of many questions... |
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| Castro wrote: | | Without these "rules", such as Atheists live w/o, what kind of morals do they have? |
Atheism is not monolithic and has no bible. Without belief in god you are set free to wrestle with such deep philosophical and ethical issues without constraints or pre-prepared answers and so form, and nurture, your own opinions. Perhaps the simplest starting point is to think of moral living as minimising the harm done to others.
The only commonality you might find amongst atheists is loose consensus on why monotheistic religions such as Christianity offer no solution. If morality comes from a creator deity then it is whimsical. On the one hand rape is wrong because the deity says so, and if that deity changes his mind then rape becomes right. On the other hand if you say rape is wrong no matter what the deity says, then you can no longer claim morality comes from the deity.
Don't know if that's the sort of thing you were looking for, but hope it is of some interest to you.
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Philosophos
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1st of many questions... |
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| Castro wrote: | | Sorry for being long winded but I guess my 1st question is, what do Atheists believe in? I mean as far as morals and such goes. Christains supposedly have morals b/c of their belief/faith in God, so they are governed by a set of rules. This is what keeps them moral. Without these "rules", such as Atheists live w/o, what kind of morals do they have? |
It's varied. I've not been particularly satisfied with any moral theory, but Mill's utilitarianism and Moore's ethical non-naturalism are fairly compelling.
But what a theist must realize is having a God does not solve any moral problems, as it does not bridge the "is-ought gap." Briefly, the "is-ought gap" is traceable back to Hume, and is a classical problem in ethics. It asks "how do we reasonably bridge the gap between how the world is, and what we ought to do?" For instance, imagine there's a god. He says "don't kill babies." Okay. That's a fact about the state of the world - there's a god who tells us to do something. Now, with this knowledge, the question presents itself: why ought I not kill babies based on this knowledge? To reasonalbly answer this question, I'd need to assume a rule, an actually ethical rule, that says "you ought to do what god tells you." But why must I believe this? Theists have several answers, none of them actually addressing the issue. For instance, the theist can respond: "because God will punish you if you don't!" But notice how this immediately moves the ethical command away from god - the rule has now become "one ought to do what avoids punishment from those more powerful than you." Is this really a "good" rule to live by? What if god says "you must kill babies?" Then, by the same rule ("one ought to do what avoids being punished by others more powerful than one's self") you ethically should kill babies.
Thus, ethical systems based on theism lead to seemingly absurd consequences. Furthermore, they do not address any ethical problems, such as the is-ought gap. Thus, theism seems to provide no basis for morality.
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BobSpence1
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Philosophos,
That is one of the clearest descriptions i have heard of the problem of Theist morality  .
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BarkAtTheMoon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1st of many questions... |
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| Castro wrote: |
"You have to put your faith in God b/c he(he only used in the masculate sense, not reference to sex) knows what is best and has a plan for you"
This is probably the best answer that a devote Christian can come up with when I ask about why we should believe and pray to God/Jesus. I do have to admit that I have believed for a very long time and I have had bad things happen to me and good things happen to me. When something good happened it was God blessing me, but when something bad happened, it was b/c I was being tested or b/c I was not being "faithful".
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Abusively controlling parents say the same thing when they try to force their kids down a career/life path that they prefer, rather than letting their kids make their own decisions and mistakes and find their own path. It rarely turns out good in those situations, so why would anyone accept the same as a positive from an absent-tee God?
This is kind of a weird argument for believing in God. God doesn't make sense and you can't understand him, therefore you should believe in him. In other words, the lack of reason, logic, and evidence for God...is proof of his existence  Calling the good a blessing and the bad a test only serves to justify the bad. It's like how believers of psychics count the hits and ignore the misses, yet this goes even a step further by justifying the misses as another positive. All this does is blind any logical thought in believers and hide the fact that God isn't listening, God doesn't really give a shit about any of us, or God doesn't exist.
| Quote: | Tyler Durden: Shut up! Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God?
Narrator: No, no, I... don't...
Tyler Durden: Listen to me! You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.
Narrator: It isn't? |
| Quote: |
Sorry for being long winded but I guess my 1st question is, what do Atheists believe in? I mean as far as morals and such goes. Christains supposedly have morals b/c of their belief/faith in God, so they are governed by a set of rules. This is what keeps them moral. Without these "rules", such as Atheists live w/o, what kind of morals do they have? |
Ask a thousand Christians what their own set of morals are and you'll get a thousand answers. Ask a thousand atheists and you'll get another thousand answers. Morality is not owned by religion, it's personal based on family, culture, law, school, and many other sources as well as religion, and all the "rules" from Christianity and/or the Bible were around in other civilizations long before the Bible was written. Christians would say all those other civilizations didn't have divinely inspired rules, why would anyone else consider the Christian rules to be divinely inspired? All religion does is add an extra level of punishment/reward in the afterlife to the normal earthly penal system and social code that every civilization has had since Hammurabi and before. Similar, rudimentary social mores are evident in other social animals besides humans as well. Social cooperation improves the abilities of the herd beyond the individual and increases the chance for survival and propogation of the species.
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"The very existence of flame throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.' - George Carlin
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sjc
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Theists base their morality on fear while atheists base it on it being the right thing to do. On a per capita basis there are far more theists in prisons than there are atheists.
"Of Babies and Bath Water "
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Castro
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. So basically Atheists come up with their own morals; regardless of what the world may think. And these morals are based upon what they personally think is right...is this correct.
I kind of brought this up to a friend of mine the other day, w/o telling of my new found interest in atheism, and she was absolutely disgusted. She thinks anyone who could not follow morals of god, would be an anarchist(sp) and it would be hard for them to follow laws as well.
I appologize, that is a little bit hard to wrap my hands around just for the simple fact that I have been raised a certain way, but I am trying to be a more open minded, free thinker.
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Sal1981
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Castro wrote: | | Thanks. So basically Atheists come up with their own morals; regardless of what the world may think. And these morals are based upon what they personally think is right...is this correct. |
No.
| Castro wrote: | | I kind of brought this up to a friend of mine the other day, w/o telling of my new found interest in atheism, and she was absolutely disgusted. She thinks anyone who could not follow morals of god, would be an anarchist(sp) and it would be hard for them to follow laws as well. |
What a Christian calls "morals", I call "rules".
| Castro wrote: | | I appologize, that is a little bit hard to wrap my hands around just for the simple fact that I have been raised a certain way, but I am trying to be a more open minded, free thinker. |
Then realize the possibility that you may be wrong - about anything.
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Rage
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Castro wrote: | | Thanks. So basically Atheists come up with their own morals; regardless of what the world may think. And these morals are based upon what they personally think is right...is this correct. |
I've read all the responses you have recieved so far, yet I don't see where you got this idea.
Perhaps you should reread the responses especially the one from Philosophos.
| Castro wrote: | | I kind of brought this up to a friend of mine the other day, w/o telling of my new found interest in atheism, and she was absolutely disgusted. She thinks anyone who could not follow morals of god, would be an anarchist(sp) and it would be hard for them to follow laws as well. |
Ask her if God told her to kill someone would she do it?
If no then she is using some other method to determine what is right other than God's commands.
If yes then is she really being moral or obedient.
| Castro wrote: | | I appologize, that is a little bit hard to wrap my hands around just for the simple fact that I have been raised a certain way, but I am trying to be a more open minded, free thinker. |
I was raised as a Christian. Many of the members of this board were also.
You are among freinds. |
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Castro
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Sal1981:
I am very aware that I can be wrong on anything. That is why I am asking questions. But thank you for your response, you kind of bring me to another topic. Most atheists seem very arrogant. This very well is probably not the case b/c I know that when you have fact and logic on your side one can be certain on a topic. To be atheist is to be right...period- this seems like a stance that some atheists have, no humility, which I feel is something all people, regardless of belief needs. I am not trying to criticize anyone, again I am trying to understand.
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Rage
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Castro wrote: | Sal1981:
I am very aware that I can be wrong on anything. That is why I am asking questions. But thank you for your response, you kind of bring me to another topic. Most atheists seem very arrogant. This very well is probably not the case b/c I know that when you have fact and logic on your side one can be certain on a topic. To be atheist is to be right...period- this seems like a stance that some atheists have, no humility, which I feel is something all people, regardless of belief needs. I am not trying to criticize anyone, again I am trying to understand. |
Is this arrogance that you have experienced only limited to atheists?
I have the same feeling when talking to Christians, Muslims, Republicans,
Democrats, etc.
It isn't that your experience isn't valid. I feel the same way about many of my atheist
brothers and sisters. However I don't believe this "sin" is limited to us. |
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rickyroma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To be atheist is to be right...period |
I very often ask monotheists outright if there is any possibility whatsoever they could be wrong. They almost invariably answer "no, I am absolutely certain I am right".
example.
Go ahead and ask atheists the same question outright. They will almost invariably answer "yes, I could be wrong."
I'm not denying that some atheists can be arrogant, but I find the polarised responses from atheists and theists to this one simple question quite telling.
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Last edited by rickyroma on Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Castro
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Rage, you're right. I didn't mean to single out atheists as the "only" group where arrogance exists. Honestly, I think I am just gathering a bunch of my responses and comments partly as a Christian questioning atheism would.
It's good to know that there are many people on here that were once devote christians b/c then they kinda of know what I am going through, especially since I am just *now trying to understand more.
*edit-spelling.
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BobSpence1
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Castro wrote: | | Thanks. So basically Atheists come up with their own morals; regardless of what the world may think. And these morals are based upon what they personally think is right...is this correct.. |
Yeah, you know, just like the Golden Rule. I thought Xians liked that idea?
Altho the Golden Rule has real problems, you need to add the Negative version "Do NOT do unto others that which you would NOT want done to you", plus the even better "Do (or do not) do unto others what THEY do (or do not, respectively) wish to be done unto them."
Still doesn't directly address the problem of people who transgress, I'm sure restraining them, or more seriously, punishing them, is doing something they or you would probably not want to suffer.
Where do get that "regardless of what the world may think"? That is most assuredly a key consideration for many - not to simply bow to 'world opinion' but certainly to very much take it into account.
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"To a committed free-thinker, blasphemy is not a crime but a duty" - me
"I believe that when I die , I will rot" - Bertrand Russell
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
Favorite oxymorons:
Business ethics
Gospel truth
Rational supernaturalist |
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sjc
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Castro wrote: | | Thanks. So basically Atheists come up with their own morals; regardless of what the world may think. And these morals are based upon what they personally think is right...is this correct. |
Theists do the same thing, atheists are just more honest about the source.
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